The Position of the Bolt on the MC

[Jim Hawthorn]

Jim, you bring up a very interesting point. And I agree that it is questionable whether or not the round would be held in place by friction.

BUT... Walt is saying that the unfired round just dropped out (through gravity) as Fritz handled the rifle - but that would have been impossible with the bolt arm being in the position it was in the Aylea film! If Fritz fully retracted the bolt, then the round could simply fall out.

[Charles Collins]

BUT... Walt is saying that the unfired round just dropped out (through gravity) as Fritz handled the rifle - but that would have been impossible with the bolt arm being in the position it was in the Aylea film! If Fritz fully retracted the bolt, then the round could simply fall out.

Walt apparently thinks that the extractor was behind the rim of the cartridge and he apparently believes that this is the reason that the bolt (apparently?) wasn’t fully forward. If this were true then Fritz could fully retract the bolt and I believe that friction would still hold the cartridge in place in the barrel.

However, if Walt is not correct and the extractor was engaged with the cartridge properly, then Fritz could fully retract the bolt gently and the bullet would fall gently to his feet. Walt apparently believes that the ejector would throw the cartridge across the room. But when a very light force is used this is simply not true. Here is testimony to back this up:


Mr. FRAZIER.  …Now, this circle will not necessarily encompass all cartridge cases ejected from the rifle, since the ejection is determined, not only by the angle of the weapon, but more by the force with which the bolt is operated. A very light force on the bolt can cause the cartridge case to tip gently out and fall at your feet. However, under normal conditions of reloading in a fairly rapid manner, we found the cartridge cases to land in this circle.

So, it appears to me that the more likely scenario is that the cartridge was properly engaged by the extractor and that Fritz used a very light force to fully retract the bolt.

[Charles Collins]

As I recall, the “gungeek” videos were done as a direct result of somebody from this forum asking him that question years ago in response to Walt making the same claim that it couldn’t be done. I believe there is a part 3 where he does it with a full clip.

Thanks, that makes sense because he kept saying that there was that question. And I couldn’t understand why he didn’t demonstrate whether or not it could be done.

[Walt Cakebread]

Jim, you bring up a very interesting point. And I agree that it is questionable whether or not the round would be held in place by friction. After all, the diameter of the bullet is slightly larger than the bore diameter of the rifle. Here are the specifics:


Mr. EISENBERG.   …Mr. Frazier, are these cartridge cases which have just been admitted into evidence the same type of cartridge from the same type of cartridge--as you just examined, Commission Exhibit No. 141?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; they are.
Mr. EISENBERG. That is, 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano, manufactured by the Western Cartridge Co.?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG. You gave the weight of the bullet which is found in this type of cartridge. Could you give us a description of the contour of the bullet, and its length?
Mr. FRAZIER. The bullet has parallel sides, with a round nose, is fully jacketed
with a copper-alloy coating or metal jacket on the outside of a lead core. Its I diameter is 6.65 millimeters. The length-possibly it would be better to put
it ‘in inches rather than millimeters. The diameter is .267 inches, and a length
of 1.185, or approximately 1.2 inches.
Mr. MCCLOY. You say that the diameter is 6.65. Did you mean 6.65 or 6.5 millimeters?
 Mr. FRAZIER. I was looking for that figure on that. It is about 6.6 — 6.65 millimeters.
The bullet, of course, will be a larger diameter than the bore of the weapon to accommodate the depths of the grooves in the barrel.
 

If Walt’s idea of the extractor not engaging the rim of the base of the cartridge were true, then wouldn’t the bullet stay stuck in the barrel by friction? The extractor is normally needed to extract the empty cartridge after it has expanded due to the explosion of the powder charge. But in the case of an unfired cartridge, it is also needed to extract the cartridge due to the friction fit of the bullet in the barrel. And the long parallel sides of these bullets create more surface area that contacts the rifle barrel than the more common pointed style bullets. So, theoretically, the friction fit of these type bullets would tend to take more force to overcome (than would the more typical pointed style bullets).

Jim, you bring up a very interesting point. And I agree that it is questionable whether or not the round would be held in place by friction. After all, the diameter of the bullet is slightly larger than the bore diameter of the rifle.

Now after a crash course in the mechanics of the carcano action, we are getting to the point .... All indicators that we can see indicate that the yokel simply dropped the live round into the chamber and attempted to close and latch the bolt.  But the carcano cannot be loaded in this manner, and he ended up with the bolt blocked  in the position it always stops if someone attempts to load the carcano by dropping a round into the chamber.


 The extractor is normally needed to extract the empty cartridge after it has expanded due to the explosion of the powder charge. But in the case of an unfired cartridge, it is also needed to extract the cartridge due to the friction fit of the bullet in the barrel. And the long parallel sides of these bullets create more surface area that contacts the rifle barrel than the more common pointed style bullets.

Now we're getting to a debatable point that is unsolvable..... Basically you're right Charles....I would only disagree on the idea that the sides of the cartridge are parallel ......They are not parallel .....   There is a slight taper with the front of the cartrige being slightly smaller in diameter than the rear of the cartridge.   BUT BUT   since we don't have the actual rifle and the same live round..... there is no way that we can know if the friction was enough to hold the cartridge in the rifle.

But since several witnesses reported that it did drop out onto the floor at  Captain Fritz's feet we can "assume" that the friction was not great enough to hold the cartridge in the chamber.  Nobody reported that the cartridge was flipped away from the rifle as would be the case if the extractor had been engaged with the rim of the cartridge.

Whew!...... 

[Walt Cakebread]

BUT... Walt is saying that the unfired round just dropped out (through gravity) as Fritz handled the rifle - but that would have been impossible with the bolt arm being in the position it was in the Aylea film! If Fritz fully retracted the bolt, then the round could simply fall out.

If Fritz fully retracted the bolt, then the round could simply fall out.

All witnesses reported that Fritz DID in fact retract the bolt ...and the live round dropped out at his feet.

[Walt Cakebread]

Walt apparently thinks that the extractor was behind the rim of the cartridge and he apparently believes that this is the reason that the bolt (apparently?) wasn’t fully forward. If this were true then Fritz could fully retract the bolt and I believe that friction would still hold the cartridge in place in the barrel.

However, if Walt is not correct and the extractor was engaged with the cartridge properly, then Fritz could fully retract the bolt gently and the bullet would fall gently to his feet. Walt apparently believes that the ejector would throw the cartridge across the room. But when a very light force is used this is simply not true. Here is testimony to back this up:


Mr. FRAZIER.  …Now, this circle will not necessarily encompass all cartridge cases ejected from the rifle, since the ejection is determined, not only by the angle of the weapon, but more by the force with which the bolt is operated. A very light force on the bolt can cause the cartridge case to tip gently out and fall at your feet. However, under normal conditions of reloading in a fairly rapid manner, we found the cartridge cases to land in this circle.

So, it appears to me that the more likely scenario is that the cartridge was properly engaged by the extractor and that Fritz used a very light force to fully retract the bolt.

You present a valid counterpoint Charles.....If the bolt is retracted very slowly the cartridge will not be flipped out with force.
Bur Fritz didn't know that.....he simply pulled the bolt open ( it wasn't latched)

And don't forget that when Day picked up the rifle FROM THE FLOOR ( not jammed between boxes) the bolt was in the exact position it would be if someone had dropped a cartridge into the chamber and tried to close and latch the bolt. This position of the bolt is a very solid indication that the extractor was not around the rim of the cartridge .....

[Charles Collins]

Jim, you bring up a very interesting point. And I agree that it is questionable whether or not the round would be held in place by friction. After all, the diameter of the bullet is slightly larger than the bore diameter of the rifle.

Now after a crash course in the mechanics of the carcano action, we are getting to the point .... All indicators that we can see indicate that the yokel simply dropped the live round into the chamber and attempted to close and latch the bolt.  But the carcano cannot be loaded in this manner, and he ended up with the bolt blocked  in the position it always stops if someone attempts to load the carcano by dropping a round into the chamber.


 The extractor is normally needed to extract the empty cartridge after it has expanded due to the explosion of the powder charge. But in the case of an unfired cartridge, it is also needed to extract the cartridge due to the friction fit of the bullet in the barrel. And the long parallel sides of these bullets create more surface area that contacts the rifle barrel than the more common pointed style bullets.

Now we're getting to a debatable point that is unsolvable..... Basically you're right Charles....I would only disagree on the idea that the sides of the cartridge are parallel ......They are not parallel .....   There is a slight taper with the front of the cartrige being slightly smaller in diameter than the rear of the cartridge.   BUT BUT   since we don't have the actual rifle and the same live round..... there is no way that we can know if the friction was enough to hold the cartridge in the rifle.

But since several witnesses reported that it did drop out onto the floor at  Captain Fritz's feet we can "assume" that the friction was not great enough to hold the cartridge in the chamber.  Nobody reported that the cartridge was flipped away from the rifle as would be the case if the extractor had been engaged with the rim of the cartridge.

Whew!......

Question for you Walt:

Do we have Fritz operating the bolt on Alyea’s video? I have watched it several times but cannot discern whether or not the bolt is operated during the video or at some other point in time that wasn’t captured in these video segments. What do you say?

[Walt Cakebread]

Question for you Walt:

Do we have Fritz operating the bolt on Alyea’s video? I have watched it several times but cannot discern whether or not the bolt is operated during the video or at some other point in time that wasn’t captured in these video segments. What do you say?

I've never seen any footage of Fritz pulling the bolt back and opening the action....  However a few years ago the Dutchman ( I can't remember his name at the moment) presented blurry photos that he said showed the cartridge falling to the floor.

I believe that since the bolt was not latched it might have slid open as Day and Fritz handled the rifle BEFORE the photo of Fritz with a handkerchief in his hand touches the rifle....