The Position of the Bolt on the MC

[Jim Hawthorn]

That live round that DROPPED OUT    DROPPED OUT of the carcano and fell at the feet of Captain Fritz speaks volumes .....   If you can't understand that ...I'm sorry.

So, we have a live round that was in the chamber. The bolt was forward (not retracted) when the rifle was found. This means that the bullet was enclosed within. So how could it have dropped out? Surely the bolt would have to be fully retracted for that to happen?

[Dan O'meara]

I'm not refusing to understand..... I have a carcano in my hand and many full clips plus spent carcano shells so I'm working with the "real mc Coy"

Oh and one other thing.... You've solved a mystery that's bugged me for decades....The dented shell...
I now know how that spent shell got dented on the bevel ....
The cut away illustration shows six cartridges in a clip in the magazine Notice where the elevator makes contact with the bottom shell....  It's right on the bevel of the cartridge.

Soooo...I believe that spent shell had at some point been loaded as the bottom shell  (spent) and in the process of pushing the clip down into the magazine, the spent shell was dented by the elevator.

The cut away illustration shows six cartridges in a clip in the magazine Notice where the elevator makes contact with the bottom shell....  It's right on the bevel of the cartridge.

The dent on the shell is on the lip, I'm not sure how the elevator could cause that.



The dent appears to be caused by a specific impact (the small dark patch) rather than being crushed. Watching the graphic Charles posted, I am finding it very difficult to envisage when such a specific impact could have taken place in the cycle of loading/firing/ejecting.

[Charles Collins]

I haven't. The fact that one unfired round was found in the chamber is no big deal. The absence of scratches from the elevator would be one thing but how to know if scratches are left every time on every MC?

I should have explained that better. I only understand where Walt is coming from regarding the cartridge being mated to the bolt face from below. This is due to the relative size of the part of the extractor that contacts the cartridge. It is larger and wraps around a bit more of the circumference of the cartridge base that the diagrams' angle indicates. Also larger and wraps around a bit more than the actual extractors of  more modern guns that I have experience with. But I do not agree with Walt's conclusions.

The guy in the video shows that it isn't difficult to manipulate the cartridge so that it mates with the bolt face properly and the bolt closes and locks normally. I don't understand why he didn't do it with all six cartridges in the clip unless he only had six cartridges in total. But he did show that the bolt can be closed with all six cartridges still in the clip below the bolt. And he did show that a cartridge can be manipulated into the bolt face properly and the bolt close and lock while there is a clip with five cartridges in it. So, the only question in my mind is how difficult is it to manipulate the seventh cartridge into the face of the bolt while all six cartridges are in the clip below the bolt.

[Walt Cakebread]

So, we have a live round that was in the chamber. The bolt was forward (not retracted) when the rifle was found. This means that the bullet was enclosed within. So how could it have dropped out? Surely the bolt would have to be fully retracted for that to happen?

I'm sorry Jim...You don't WANT to follow along with my statements, you want to BELIEVE what suits your theory.

I've said over and over that the cartridge MUST be seated on the face of the bolt BEFORE the cartridge is in the chamber. IF the cartridge is in the chamber (as I've always stated was the case when the rifle was found ) then the front of the bolt is SURROUNDED by the rear of the firing chamber and the extractor CANNOT cam up and over the rim of the cartridge that is in the chamber.

Let me repeat what I've always said....The yokel who placed the live round in the carcano didn't know that the bolt won't close and latch if you merely drop a cartridge into the firing chamber.   The yokel didn't know that, and he did in fact drop a live cartridge into the chamber and attempt to close and latch the bolt.    The bolt hit the back of the cartridge in the chamber and the bolt could not be latched. (The extractor would not cam over the rim of the cartridge )  The bolt was stopped in the exact place that it is seen in the Alyea film.    Thus the yokel simply hid the rifle beneath the pallet of books with the bolt unlatched ( the rifle was NOT ready to fire as the liars claimed.)  We can be sure that the extractor was not behind the rim of the cartridge because the live round simply fell out by the force of gravity and NOT by being pulled out by the extractor, because the cartridge did not strike the ejector and fly away from the rifle....It simply fell on the floor.

[Walt Cakebread]

The cut away illustration shows six cartridges in a clip in the magazine Notice where the elevator makes contact with the bottom shell....  It's right on the bevel of the cartridge.

The dent on the shell is on the lip, I'm not sure how the elevator could cause that.



The dent appears to be caused by a specific impact (the small dark patch) rather than being crushed. Watching the graphic Charles posted, I am finding it very difficult to envisage when such a specific impact could have taken place in the cycle of loading/firing/ejecting.

The dent was not necessarily caused by an impact.... LOOK at the cutaway and notice that the bottom of the bottom cartridge is in contact with the elevator..... A spent shell in the bottom position could be easily dented by the elevator. when the clip is pushed down into the magazine

[Dan O'meara]

I'm sorry Jim...You don't WANT to follow along with my statements, you want to BELIEVE what suits your theory.

I've said over and over that the cartridge MUST be seated on the face of the bolt BEFORE the cartridge is in the chamber. IF the cartridge is in the chamber (as I've always stated was the case when the rifle was found ) then the front of the bolt is SURROUNDED by the rear of the firing chamber and the extractor CANNOT cam up and over the rim of the cartridge that is in the chamber.

Let me repeat what I've always said....The yokel who placed the live round in the carcano didn't know that the bolt won't close and latch if you merely drop a cartridge into the firing chamber.   The yokel didn't know that, and he did in fact drop a live cartridge into the chamber and attempt to close and latch the bolt.    The bolt hit the back of the cartridge in the chamber and the bolt could not be latched. (The extractor would not cam over the rim of the cartridge )  The bolt was stopped in the exact place that it is seen in the Alyea film.    Thus the yokel simply hid the rifle beneath the pallet of books with the bolt unlatched ( the rifle was NOT ready to fire as the liars claimed.)  We can be sure that the extractor was not behind the rim of the cartridge because the live round simply fell out by the force of gravity and NOT by being pulled out by the extractor, because the cartridge did not strike the ejector and fly away from the rifle....It simply fell on the floor.

I'm starting to get a grip on what you're saying Walt.
Correct me if I'm wrong. In the pic below I'm not sure what the component is called picked out by the red arrow but in Charles' graphic, when the bolt is latched downwards, this component also moves downwards into the slot picked out by the yellow arrow. It appears that this component is not in line with the slot so, I'm assuming, the bolt is not fully forward and it isn't possible to latch the bolt.



What I don't understand is why a bullet, manually inserted into the chamber, would cause the bolt to be blocked.

[Dan O'meara]

The dent was not necessarily caused by an impact.... LOOK at the cutaway and notice that the bottom of the bottom cartridge is in contact with the elevator..... A spent shell in the bottom position could be easily dented by the elevator. when the clip is pushed down into the magazine

There's no way, in my opinion, that a shell with the bullet still inside it, could be deformed so badly by the elevator.

LATER EDIT: What would be the point of loading a spent shell?

[Walt Cakebread]

I should have explained that better. I only understand where Walt is coming from regarding the cartridge being mated to the bolt face from below. This is due to the relative size of the part of the extractor that contacts the cartridge. It is larger and wraps around a bit more of the circumference of the cartridge base that the diagrams' angle indicates. Also larger and wraps around a bit more than the actual extractors of  more modern guns that I have experience with. But I do not agree with Walt's conclusions.

The guy in the video shows that it isn't difficult to manipulate the cartridge so that it mates with the bolt face properly and the bolt closes and locks normally. I don't understand why he didn't do it with all six cartridges in the clip unless he only had six cartridges in total. But he did show that the bolt can be closed with all six cartridges still in the clip below the bolt. And he did show that a cartridge can be manipulated into the bolt face properly and the bolt close and lock while there is a clip with five cartridges in it. So, the only question in my mind is how difficult is it to manipulate the seventh cartridge into the face of the bolt while all six cartridges are in the clip below the bolt.

I only understand where Walt is coming from regarding the cartridge being mated to the bolt face from below. This is due to the relative size of the part of the extractor that contacts the cartridge. It is larger and wraps around a bit more of the circumference of the cartridge base that the diagrams' angle indicates.

Back to the starting line.... I said the carcano cannot be loaded as a single shot rifle by merely DROPPING A LIVE ROUND INTO THE CHAMBER.   The reason the carcano can't be loaded with a single cartridge by dropping the single round into the chamber is graphically explained visually in the video . The man holds the bolt up to the camera and it's obvious that the diameter of the
face of the bolt including the extractor is much smaller at 10.36mm  than the diameter of the rim of a carcano cartridge which is  11.39mm   ( like trying to put a size 12 foot in a size 10 shoe)

Am I making myself clear?