The Position of the Bolt on the MC

[Walt Cakebread]

Faith in the Warren Commission? You must be joking.
The problem is you don't consider the evidence in it's totality. Tom Alyea is nothing to do with the WC. Here are his words regarding the discovery of the rifle:

"Shortly after we arrived back on the 6th floor, Deputy Eugene Boone located the assassin's rifle almost completely hidden by some overhanging boxes near the stairwell. I filmed it as it was found. In my shot, the figure of Captain Fritz is standing within the enclosure next to the rifle...About fifteen minutes later, Lt. Day and Studebaker arrived. Still pictures were taken of the positioning of the rifle, then Lt. Day slid it out from its hiding place and held it up for all of us to see."

According to Alyea:
1) Boone locates rifle hidden by overhanging boxes
2) Alyea begins filming
3) Fritz stands in enclosure
4) Day and Studebaker arrive
5) They take still pictures
6) Day slides rifle out and holds it up

Both Boone and Weitzman are adamant they sealed the area until the crime lab arrived. Both men identify the location of the rifle when it was discovered. Alyea films the rifle in the position it was discovered.
Boone confirms the crime lab took photos of the rifle in situ before it was removed:

"I had my light in my hand. I was slinging it around on the floor, and I caught a glimpse of the rifle, stuffed down between two rows of boxes with another box or so pulled over the top of it. And I hollered that the rifle was here...Some of the other officers came over to look at it. I told them to stand back, not to get around close, they might want to take prints of some of the boxes, and not touch the rifle. And at that time Captain Fritz and an ID man came over. I believe the ID man's name was Lieutenant Day--I am not sure. They came over and the weapon was photographed as it lay...and it was removed from the place where it was."


The film shows Fritz stepping into the "enclosure", as Alyea describes [the rifle is in the upright position]. Alyea begins filming immediately and captures the original position of the rifle, Studebaker taking photos of the rifle in situ, then Day removing the rifle.
For your scenario to work Boone, Weitzman and Alyea all have to be lying.
I do not accept this but you do.


Side note - Alyea goes on to say:

"Lt. Day immediately turned toward the window behind him and started dusting the weapon for fingerprints. Day was still within the enclosure formed by the surrounding boxes. I filmed him lifting prints from the rifle. He lifted them off with scotch tape and placed them on little white cards. When he had finished, he handed the rifle to Captain Fritz. Fritz pulled the bolt back and a live round ejected and landed on the boxes below. Fritz put the cartridge in his pocket. I did not see Fritz pick up anything other than the live round."

So Fritz removed the live round after Day dusted the rifle for prints. We do not see this in the Alyea footage. The position of the bolt, as Day turns towards the camera, is the same as when it was picked off the floor by Day.

I don't think that I can change your mind....  But do you have Alyea saying that it was obvious that he rifle had taken some time to hide .....So the assassin must have constructed the hiding place before the shooting.

Or words to that effect.    IOW Alyea knew that the rifle was not hastily jammed between boxes of books by one of the worlds strongest men.      I don't believe that Boone or Weitzman , or Alyea or Roger Craig were lying about the position of the rifle in their original affidavits.....  But when they testified before LBJ Special committee they answer the question as they had been instructed.

Simply because the description of the hiding place is verified by Boone and Weitzman when they appeared before the WC does NOT confirm that the photos were taken at about 1:45 that afternoon...

[Dan O'meara]

I don't think that I can change your mind....  But do you have Alyea saying that it was obvious that he rifle had taken some time to hide .....So the assassin must have constructed the hiding place before the shooting.

Or words to that effect.    IOW Alyea knew that the rifle was not hastily jammed between boxes of books by one of the worlds strongest men.      I don't believe that Boone or Weitzman , or Alyea or Roger Craig were lying about the position of the rifle in there original affidavits.....  But when the testified before LBJ Special committee they answer the question as they had been instructed.

Simply because the description of the hiding place is verified by Boone and Weitzman when they appeared before the WC does NOT confirm that the photos were taken at about 1:45 that afternoon...

Simply because the description of the hiding place is verified by Boone and Weitzman when they appeared before the WC does NOT confirm that the photos were taken at about 1:45 that afternoon...

Come on Walt, it's written in my post - Alyea confirms that the pictures were taken before the rifle was removed. He actually films Studebaker taking a photo before the rifle is removed.
The location of the rifle as verified by Boone and Weitzman is the same location as the rifle in the Alyea film - one thing corroborates the other.
Alyea confirms he starts filming immediately after it's discovery by Boone, he films Fritz walking into the enclosure, he films the rifle at Fritz's feet [in the upright position]

Provide some evidence that supports your position, not your interpretation of something ambiguous but direct evidence that supports your position.

[Walt Cakebread]

Faith in the Warren Commission? You must be joking.
The problem is you don't consider the evidence in it's totality. Tom Alyea is nothing to do with the WC. Here are his words regarding the discovery of the rifle:

"Shortly after we arrived back on the 6th floor, Deputy Eugene Boone located the assassin's rifle almost completely hidden by some overhanging boxes near the stairwell. I filmed it as it was found. In my shot, the figure of Captain Fritz is standing within the enclosure next to the rifle...About fifteen minutes later, Lt. Day and Studebaker arrived. Still pictures were taken of the positioning of the rifle, then Lt. Day slid it out from its hiding place and held it up for all of us to see."

According to Alyea:
1) Boone locates rifle hidden by overhanging boxes
2) Alyea begins filming
3) Fritz stands in enclosure
4) Day and Studebaker arrive
5) They take still pictures
6) Day slides rifle out and holds it up

Both Boone and Weitzman are adamant they sealed the area until the crime lab arrived. Both men identify the location of the rifle when it was discovered. Alyea films the rifle in the position it was discovered.
Boone confirms the crime lab took photos of the rifle in situ before it was removed:

"I had my light in my hand. I was slinging it around on the floor, and I caught a glimpse of the rifle, stuffed down between two rows of boxes with another box or so pulled over the top of it. And I hollered that the rifle was here...Some of the other officers came over to look at it. I told them to stand back, not to get around close, they might want to take prints of some of the boxes, and not touch the rifle. And at that time Captain Fritz and an ID man came over. I believe the ID man's name was Lieutenant Day--I am not sure. They came over and the weapon was photographed as it lay...and it was removed from the place where it was."


The film shows Fritz stepping into the "enclosure", as Alyea describes [the rifle is in the upright position]. Alyea begins filming immediately and captures the original position of the rifle, Studebaker taking photos of the rifle in situ, then Day removing the rifle.
For your scenario to work Boone, Weitzman and Alyea all have to be lying.
I do not accept this but you do.


Side note - Alyea goes on to say:

"Lt. Day immediately turned toward the window behind him and started dusting the weapon for fingerprints. Day was still within the enclosure formed by the surrounding boxes. I filmed him lifting prints from the rifle. He lifted them off with scotch tape and placed them on little white cards. When he had finished, he handed the rifle to Captain Fritz. Fritz pulled the bolt back and a live round ejected and landed on the boxes below. Fritz put the cartridge in his pocket. I did not see Fritz pick up anything other than the live round."

So Fritz removed the live round after Day dusted the rifle for prints. We do not see this in the Alyea footage. The position of the bolt, as Day turns towards the camera, is the same as when it was picked off the floor by Day.

I filmed him lifting prints from the rifle. He lifted them off with scotch tape and placed them on little white cards.

This is very important , Dan.....  Alyea says that he filmed Lt Day lifting  prints from the rifle ..... and placing the scotch tape lift on "little white cards ( index cards ) ....Day would have identified where the lift had been lifted from....and he did ....He scrawled on that index card " Off underside of of gun barrellC2766  (sic) near end of foregrip Day dated and initialed the index card.

I submit ...that Alyea is referring to the card that later became WC exhibit #630....._

[Walt Cakebread]

Simply because the description of the hiding place is verified by Boone and Weitzman when they appeared before the WC does NOT confirm that the photos were taken at about 1:45 that afternoon...

Come on Walt, it's written in my post - Alyea confirms that the pictures were taken before the rifle was removed. He actually films Studebaker taking a photo before the rifle is removed.
The location of the rifle as verified by Boone and Weitzman is the same location as the rifle in the Alyea film - one thing corroborates the other.
Alyea confirms he starts filming immediately after it's discovery by Boone, he films Fritz walking into the enclosure, he films the rifle at Fritz's feet [in the upright position]

Provide some evidence that supports your position, not your interpretation of something ambiguous but direct evidence that supports your position.

Alright Dan.....If you own or have access to a rifle or shotgun similar in configuration to a mannlicher carcano....

Grab it by the butt and try to hold it horizontal with your left hand and insert into an opening like beneath a coffee table ....

[Walt Cakebread]

Faith in the Warren Commission? You must be joking.
The problem is you don't consider the evidence in it's totality. Tom Alyea is nothing to do with the WC. Here are his words regarding the discovery of the rifle:

"Shortly after we arrived back on the 6th floor, Deputy Eugene Boone located the assassin's rifle almost completely hidden by some overhanging boxes near the stairwell. I filmed it as it was found. In my shot, the figure of Captain Fritz is standing within the enclosure next to the rifle...About fifteen minutes later, Lt. Day and Studebaker arrived. Still pictures were taken of the positioning of the rifle, then Lt. Day slid it out from its hiding place and held it up for all of us to see."

According to Alyea:
1) Boone locates rifle hidden by overhanging boxes
2) Alyea begins filming
3) Fritz stands in enclosure
4) Day and Studebaker arrive
5) They take still pictures
6) Day slides rifle out and holds it up

Both Boone and Weitzman are adamant they sealed the area until the crime lab arrived. Both men identify the location of the rifle when it was discovered. Alyea films the rifle in the position it was discovered.
Boone confirms the crime lab took photos of the rifle in situ before it was removed:

"I had my light in my hand. I was slinging it around on the floor, and I caught a glimpse of the rifle, stuffed down between two rows of boxes with another box or so pulled over the top of it. And I hollered that the rifle was here...Some of the other officers came over to look at it. I told them to stand back, not to get around close, they might want to take prints of some of the boxes, and not touch the rifle. And at that time Captain Fritz and an ID man came over. I believe the ID man's name was Lieutenant Day--I am not sure. They came over and the weapon was photographed as it lay...and it was removed from the place where it was."


The film shows Fritz stepping into the "enclosure", as Alyea describes [the rifle is in the upright position]. Alyea begins filming immediately and captures the original position of the rifle, Studebaker taking photos of the rifle in situ, then Day removing the rifle.
For your scenario to work Boone, Weitzman and Alyea all have to be lying.
I do not accept this but you do.


Side note - Alyea goes on to say:

"Lt. Day immediately turned toward the window behind him and started dusting the weapon for fingerprints. Day was still within the enclosure formed by the surrounding boxes. I filmed him lifting prints from the rifle. He lifted them off with scotch tape and placed them on little white cards. When he had finished, he handed the rifle to Captain Fritz. Fritz pulled the bolt back and a live round ejected and landed on the boxes below. Fritz put the cartridge in his pocket. I did not see Fritz pick up anything other than the live round."

So Fritz removed the live round after Day dusted the rifle for prints. We do not see this in the Alyea footage. The position of the bolt, as Day turns towards the camera, is the same as when it was picked off the floor by Day.

3) Fritz stands in enclosure
4) Day and Studebaker arrive

 And at that time Captain Fritz and an ID man came over. I believe the ID man's name was Lieutenant Day-

Hmmmmm.... Boone says....."at that time Captain Fritz and an ID man came over. I believe the ID man's name was Lieutenant Day-"
Boone says that Fritz and Day arrive together.......

Which one is correct....
.2) Alyea begins filming
3) Fritz stands in enclosure
4) Day and Studebaker arrive

[Dan O'meara]

Alright Dan.....If you own or have access to a rifle or shotgun similar in configuration to a mannlicher carcano....

Grab it by the butt and try to hold it horizontal with your left hand and insert into an opening like beneath a coffee table ....

So, I'm presenting actual film footage of the rifle being removed as evidence.
Tom Alyea films the recovery of the rifle from the location and position it was discovered in - "I filmed it as it was found."
Boone and Weitzman confirm that the location of the rifle was the same as seen in the Alyea footage.
Both men testify that once the rifle was discovered they sealed off the area until the crime lab came over.
Alyea states that the DPD photos were taken before the rifle was removed.
Boone confirms the same thing.
Alyea actually films Studebaker taking a photo before the rifle was removed!!

I'm presenting actual film evidence of the rifle in it's original position, being photographed by the DPD and then being removed by Day.
The original position of the rifle is confirmed by Alyea, Boone and Weitzman.
That the DPD took still photos of the rifle in it's original position before it was removed by Day, is confirmed by Alyea and Boone and is actually on film!

In response, all you can say is for me to try and put a replica Mannlicher Carcano under a coffee table. 

You will not accept the evidence and you have none of your own to support your theories.
You make stuff up then call the evidence into question because it refutes your made-up story.
 
As Oscar Wilde once quipped - "What the f%ck!"

[Walt Cakebread]

So, I'm presenting actual film footage of the rifle being removed as evidence.
Tom Alyea films the recovery of the rifle from the location and position it was discovered in - "I filmed it as it was found."
Boone and Weitzman confirm that the location of the rifle was the same as seen in the Alyea footage.
Both men testify that once the rifle was discovered they sealed off the area until the crime lab came over.
Alyea states that the DPD photos were taken before the rifle was removed.
Boone confirms the same thing.
Alyea actually films Studebaker taking a photo before the rifle was removed!!

I'm presenting actual film evidence of the rifle in it's original position, being photographed by the DPD and then being removed by Day.
The original position of the rifle is confirmed by Alyea, Boone and Weitzman.
That the DPD took still photos of the rifle in it's original position before it was removed by Day, is confirmed by Alyea and Boone and is actually on film!

In response, all you can say is for me to try and put a replica Mannlicher Carcano under a coffee table. 

You will not accept the evidence and you have none of your own to support your theories.
You make stuff up then call the evidence into question because it refutes your made-up story.
 
As Oscar Wilde once quipped - "What the f%ck!"

n response, all you can say is for me to try and put a replica Mannlicher Carcano under a coffee table. 
Yes that's right  .... and if you can't hold a rifle by the butt with your left hand only, and hold the rifle horizontal, then Lee Oswald couldn't have held that Carcano by the butt and inserted it into that gap.

Dan you are doomed to run around chasing the wild goose because you accept the information that the shyster lawyers were able to extract from witnesses like Boone, and Weitzman, and Brennan and et al.....

[Dan O'meara]

n response, all you can say is for me to try and put a replica Mannlicher Carcano under a coffee table. 
Yes that's right  .... and if you can't hold a rifle by the butt with your left hand only, and hold the rifle horizontal, then Lee Oswald couldn't have held that Carcano by the butt and inserted it into that gap.

Dan you are doomed to run around chasing the wild goose because you accept the information that the shyster lawyers were able to extract from witnesses like Boone, and Weitzman, and Brennan and et al.....

The "information that the shyster lawyers were able to extract from witnesses like Boone, and Weitzman," is confirmed by Alyea's statements and film. This information is corroborated. There is actual film footage of the rifle being removed.
So, your argument that my opinion is solely based on the findings of the WC is completely incorrect.
On the other hand, you have zero evidence to support your own claims. So who is on a wild goose chase?

I do not believe Oswald took the shots and, as such, I'm not tied to the necessity of having the MC as the actual assassination weapon. It makes sense to me that the MC was a prop, the specific purpose of which was to frame Oswald for the shooting. I do not need to get into putting a Mannlicher Carcano under a coffee table for a simple reason - Oswald never put the rifle there. In all probability it was in this position as the shooting was taking place.

There is no need to have the DPD construct a hiding place for the rifle if it was already there when they arrived.
There is no need to stage the scene.
There is no need to falsify the photos.
There is no need for Alyea, Boone or Weitzman to lie about what they saw.