Finally Watched Oliver Stone's "JFK Revisited"

[Richard Smith]

In the 1960s through a decade ago, liberals were skeptical of the government.  Particularly such institutions as the FBI and military.  Mostly due to Vietnam and Watergate.  They promoted free speech even of extreme views and were skeptical of the government (even LBJ's administration) while conservatives tended to support the status quo.  There has been a sea change in the present day.  Now the leftists are lock step with the FBI and anything espoused by left wing politicians.  There is a Stasi-like compliance to authority fueled by the media and social media propaganda.  No one dares to question what they are told.  If they do so, they are destroyed.  Stone may no longer fit easily into the same leftist mold that existed in the past.  He is a complete krank but his questioning of the government rather than blind compliance is commendable even if his conclusions are wrong.

[Steve M. Galbraith]

In the 1960s through a decade ago, liberals were skeptical of the government.  Particularly such institutions as the FBI and military.  Mostly due to Vietnam and Watergate.  They promoted free speech even of extreme views and were skeptical of the government (even LBJ's administration) while conservatives tended to support the status quo.  There has been a sea change in the present day.  Now the leftists are lock step with the FBI and anything espoused by left wing politicians.  There is a Stasi-like compliance to authority fueled by the media and social media propaganda.  No one dares to question what they are told.  If they do so, they are destroyed.  Stone may no longer fit easily into the same leftist mold that existed in the past.  He is a complete krank but his questioning of the government rather than blind compliance is commendable even if his conclusions are wrong.

Isn't it just simply that people tend to lose their skepticism of government (or becomes supporters of it) when they or their side is exercising that power? Conservatives were defenders of the FBI, of the military, of the national security state during the Cold War but have only recently questioned those institutions as Democrats and liberals began to control them. Hoover's FBI is now Comey's FBI and so on. When universities were suppressing radical left views conservatives tended to support that. Now it's the left suppressing views and conservatives are (rightly) upset. It's all tribal politics now.

As to Stone: But he doesn't question governments; he only questions the US (or western) governments. He's been an apologist for decades for the Castros and the Chavezs and other authoritarian governments that are hostile to the US. His rule is that if they oppose the US - or the US opposes them - then they must be defended. He really does view the US as a thoroughly corrupt country - he calls the US the "wild beast" that must be tamed. And if a government, no matter how corrupt it is, opposes the US then he'll defend it. Go watch his HBO movie on the history of the US. He believes that the Cold Was was caused solely by the US and that if we had elected Henry Wallace none of that conflict would have followed. Stalin gets a pass.

BTW, to relate this to the assassination: One of Wallace's top advisers in his presidential campaign was John Abt. Yes, that John Abt.

[Jerry Organ]

Now the leftists are lock step with the FBI and anything espoused by left wing politicians.  There is a Stasi-like compliance to authority fueled by the media and social media propaganda.  No one dares to question what they are told.

Conservatives were defenders of the FBI, of the military, of the national security state during the Cold War

Ahh. The Glory Days of McCarthyism, and complying dossiers on homosexuals and "uppity" blacks. But then the FBI "went after" the Klan and then Nixon over Watergate. That's really when the Republicans started to suspect the Bureau.

[Richard Smith]

Ahh. The Glory Days of McCarthyism, and complying dossiers on homosexuals and "uppity" blacks. But then the FBI "went after" the Klan and then Nixon over Watergate. That's really when the Republicans started to suspect the Bureau.

Your understanding of American history is lacking.  It was a group of Dems including LBJ in the senate who held up any advancement of civil rights for almost a hundred years.  Republicans from Grant to Eisenhower were advocates of equality.  There also was a real threat of Communist infiltration of the government.  The Russians had an extensive intelligence operation that had infiltrated many areas of the government because so many leftists in government were sympathetic to the cause.  Academics, scientists and others actively provided information to the Soviets.   All that has little to do with the point under discussion which was that the questioning of the government was once a leftist trait.  LBJ was a favorite target of liberals even though he was a Democrat with the most liberal agenda until Biden.  There would be no criticism of him under the modern liberals.  They walk in lock step, Stasi-like compliance.

[Jerry Organ]

Your understanding of American history is lacking.  It was a group of Dems including LBJ in the senate who held up any advancement of civil rights for almost a hundred years.  Republicans from Grant to Eisenhower were advocates of equality.

Yet they failed to act on it. Between 1860 and the Great Depression, Republicans controlled the White House and, at the same time, Congress more than half the time. Something about the blacks ought to be content with having the vote and businessmen didn't want to be forced to open up to blacks. Blaming inaction on the Democrats during that time is just more gaslighting from the current weird GOP.

Eisenhower entered office with a Republican majority in the House and control of the Senate. The two Civil Rights Bills passed in Ike's second term had support from the majority of Democrats in both Houses (most Southern Democrats holding out).

There also was a real threat of Communist infiltration of the government.  The Russians had an extensive intelligence operation that had infiltrated many areas of the government because so many leftists in government were sympathetic to the cause.  Academics, scientists and others actively provided information to the Soviets.   All that has little to do with the point under discussion which was that the questioning of the government was once a leftist trait.  LBJ was a favorite target of liberals even though he was a Democrat with the most liberal agenda until Biden.  There would be no criticism of him under the modern liberals.  They walk in lock step, Stasi-like compliance.

Richard does so well at seeing how he was once deluded and conned by the JFK Assassination Conspiracy mind-benders. Now Poor Richard has become all radicalized by the soul-sucking Fox News and alt-right-web echo chamber.

"Stasi-like" is the du jour dog-whistle at Fox since Trump stooge Jeffrey Clark used the term at a Jan-6th hearing last June. Now the Trump raid has inspired such effusive-though-inapplicable terms as "preemptive coup", "Third World bullspombleprofglidnoctobuns", "Partisan witch hunt", "dark day for our republic" and "Gestapo". Gee, some poor person literally getting their door kicked in or hauled out of their car window are supposed to be compliant and not complain. Now we know who the marshmallows really are.

[Richard Smith]

Yet they failed to act on it. Between 1860 and the Great Depression, Republicans controlled the White House and, at the same time, Congress more than half the time. Something about the blacks ought to be content with having the vote and businessmen didn't want to be forced to open up to blacks. Blaming inaction on the Democrats during that time is just more gaslighting from the current weird GOP.

Eisenhower entered office with a Republican majority in the House and control of the Senate. The two Civil Rights Bills passed in Ike's second term had support from the majority of Democrats in both Houses (most Southern Democrats holding out).

Richard does so well at seeing how he was once deluded and conned by the JFK Assassination Conspiracy mind-benders. Now Poor Richard has become all radicalized by the soul-sucking Fox News and alt-right-web echo chamber.

"Stasi-like" is the du jour dog-whistle at Fox since Trump stooge Jeffrey Clark used the term at a Jan-6th hearing last June. Now the Trump raid has inspired such effusive-though-inapplicable terms as "preemptive coup", "Third World bullspombleprofglidnoctobuns", "Partisan witch hunt", "dark day for our republic" and "Gestapo". Gee, some poor person literally getting their door kicked in or hauled out of their car window are supposed to be compliant and not complain. Now we know who the marshmallows really are.

Jerry has a very low opinion of America.  Ironic for someone who lives in Canada of all places. Unfortunately, he is correct on the current status.  Things in the US are a royal mess.  Maybe read Robert Caro's books, though.  You don't understand the first thing about how the US Senate works.  A handful of powerful Southern Dems were able to hold up Civil Rights legislation for nearly 100 years.  It's not a question of having a "majority."  LBJ played a big part in that.  It was only when he decided to run for national office (i.e. President) that he saw the light.  While running for state office in Texas, LBJ towed the racist line for decades because that is what got him elected.

[Jon Banks]

I think that was because Oliver Stone and Jim D are not far left liberals. I think they might even be considered somewhat conservative.

Stone and Jim D are both very Liberal.

The great thing about JFK assassination research is that it’s totally non-partisan. It’s one of those neutral topics where political partisanship is not much of a factor…

[Jon Banks]

As to Stone: But he doesn't question governments; he only questions the US (or western) governments. He's been an apologist for decades for the Castros and the Chavezs and other authoritarian governments that are hostile to the US. His rule is that if they oppose the US - or the US opposes them - then they must be defended. He really does view the US as a thoroughly corrupt country - he calls the US the "wild beast" that must be tamed. And if a government, no matter how corrupt it is, opposes the US then he'll defend it. Go watch his HBO movie on the history of the US. He believes that the Cold Was was caused solely by the US and that if we had elected Henry Wallace none of that conflict would have followed. Stalin gets a pass.

BTW, to relate this to the assassination: One of Wallace's top advisers in his presidential campaign was John Abt. Yes, that John Abt.

I consider my political views to be very close to that of Oliver Stone so in his defense, it’s not that he apologizes for autocrats or US adversaries. It’s more a point of view that “the Cold War didn’t need to happen”, meaning , it could’ve been avoided; The Military Industrial Complex practices “Threat Inflation” and exaggerates threats from adversarial countries in order to justify insane levels of defense spending; There are powerful people in our government who seem to not want peace.

I don’t think Stone agrees with Chavez, Castro, or Putin’s political ideologies. As you know or maybe don’t know, Chavez and Castro were authoritarian Left while Putin is authoritarian Right. Having watched Stone’s interviews with Castro and Putin, it seemed more like he was genuinely curious about who they were and what drives them. There’s value in knowing and understanding people like that even if you hate their guts.