Re: Motorcycle Policeman Hargis said Limo stopped !

[Matt Grantham]

 The following link shows some evidence of some serious breaking or slowing around 313

[Steve Barber]

 It is really exasperating to read these comments from people saying that the fatal shot came from the front.  I have yet to see anyone posting the proof that the shot came from the rear, when there is more proof of it than anything else! 

 The Harper fragment and the David Burris fragment were both found several yards AHEAD of where the limousine was located at the time of the fatal shot--not to mention the piece of skull Seymour Weitzman saw someone "lifting from the gutter on Elm street".  The majority of the head matter landed on the Connally's, Greer, Kellerman, the hood, sun visors(both sides) windshield, interior of the car, the side rails--both sides of the car and trunk lid.  All you have to do is read the testimony of Robert Frazier.  The top of the president's head--not the rear or side--was blown off.  Mrs. Kennedy's own words to Theodore White one week(7 days) after the assassination reveals this. As for the motorcycle officers, look closely and you can see the fine mist("cloud"/"plume") that  Bobby Hargis describes that he drove into, and Martin said he didn't even see the fatal shot, nor did he feel anything land on him.  He only described what he saw on his uniform, helmet and motorcycle, later, after directing traffic.  The display of head matter in the Zapruder film shows the top of the head flying through the air towards the front. Someone (I believe it was Dr.Lattimer) estimated them traveling at around 80 MPH, and it's obvious that these are skull fragments.  James Altgens stated during an interview--not to mention his WC testimony--that head matter flew in his direction.  He stated during one interview (possibly in Richard Trask's Pictures Of the Pain ) that matter landed near his feet.  Nowhere in the Zapruder film do we see skull fragments or large fragments of head matter flying to the rear of the limousine, and no skull fragments were found or seen flying to the rear.  The majority of head matter flew forward, a mist captured in the wind wafts to rear and is what landed on Hargis and Martin. 

[Matt Grantham]

It is really exasperating to read these comments from people saying that the fatal shot came from the front.  I have yet to see anyone posting the proof that the shot came from the rear, when there is more proof of it than anything else! 

 The Harper fragment and the David Burris fragment were both found several yards AHEAD of where the limousine was located at the time of the fatal shot--not to mention the piece of skull Seymour Weitzman saw someone "lifting from the gutter on Elm street".  The majority of the head matter landed on the Connally's, Greer, Kellerman, the hood, sun visors(both sides) windshield, interior of the car, the side rails--both sides of the car and trunk lid.  All you have to do is read the testimony of Robert Frazier.  The top of the president's head--not the rear or side--was blown off.  Mrs. Kennedy's own words to Theodore White one week(7 days) after the assassination reveals this. As for the motorcycle officers, look closely and you can see the fine mist("cloud"/"plume") that  Bobby Hargis describes that he drove into, and Martin said he didn't even see the fatal shot, nor did he feel anything land on him.  He only described what he saw on his uniform, helmet and motorcycle, later, after directing traffic.  The display of head matter in the Zapruder film shows the top of the head flying through the air towards the front. Someone (I believe it was Dr.Lattimer) estimated them traveling at around 80 MPH, and it's obvious that these are skull fragments.  James Altgens stated during an interview--not to mention his WC testimony--that head matter flew in his direction.  He stated during one interview (possibly in Richard Trask's Pictures Of the Pain ) that matter landed near his feet.  Nowhere in the Zapruder film do we see skull fragments or large fragments of head matter flying to the rear of the limousine, and no skull fragments were found or seen flying to the rear.  The majority of head matter flew forward, a mist captured in the wind wafts to rear and is what landed on Hargis and Martin.

 Citations please!

[Steve Barber]

Citations please!

So, you aren't familiar with ANY of what I said?

 Robert Frazier Warren Commission testimony. Graphic description of the blood and head matter all over the car as well as bullet fragments and damage to the windshield.  Look it up.

  Mrs. Kennedy 's description of the head wound on top of the head:  http://www.jfklancer.com/pdf/Camelot.pdf

 Both John and Nellie Connally describe head matter landing on them, John Connally describing a "chunk of the President's brain as almost as my thumbnail" landed on his trousers.  Read his Warren Commission testimony . It's in there.

 Mrs. Connally described it merely as "matter all over the car and both of us".  She stated that it felt like "spent buckshot" when it landed on her.  Read her Warren Commission testimony.  it's in there.

Roy Kellerman described the head matter as "moist sawdust" landing on him.  Read his Warren Commission testimony. It's in there.
 
 Bill Greer never mentioned feeling anything strike him, but the fact that the windshield directly in front of him was blood spattered/splattered as well as the windshield being struck on the inside by a fragment of the bullet to the head of the president, indicates he could never have escaped being splattered/spattered with blood, brain and possibly skull fragments.

  You will have to do your own search on Billy Harper re: the "Harper Fragment"

   B.J. Martin Warren commission testimony-available online  Same with his testimony at the Clay Shaw trial, also available online. 

   Bobby Hargis Warren Commission testimony and Clay Shaw trial testimony (see above)

    David Burris.  I have two 8x10's taken of the area in Dealey Plaza which Burris himself highlighted where he found the skull fragments.  I will post these photographs here on this forum. 

 Seymour Weitzman Warren Commission testimony. He mentions having found a fragment that was lying in the street 8-12 inches from the curb on the south side of Elm street. I made an error saying that Weitzman found it in the gutter.  I mixed this up with the story about Weitzman in the book The Day Kennedy Was Shot by Jim Bishop.
 
 I do not have access to any of my assassination books, they are packed away, so I cannot tell you (as I indicated) exactly where James Altgens mentioned head matter landing near his feet, but, his Warren Commission testimony does mention him saying that matter came in his direction. As i mentioned, I believe it may be in Richard Trask's Pictures Of the Pain.

   

     

   

[Mike Orr]

Sam Kinney was the driver of the backup car behind the JFK limo and he saw the back of the head wound as it was being blown out from JFK's head. Not only were the motorcycle patrolmen hit with brain matter and blood , Sam Kinney said the limo he was driving had brain matter on it as well as his left arm . Those people were hit hard with blood and brain matter . Jackie got on the trunk to possibly scoop up brain matter or maybe a piece of skull . Jackie did not remember going out on the trunk lid. Clint Hill said that Jackie was trying to retrieve a piece of JFK's skull. If the motorcycle policemen and Kinney were to drive thru a mist of JFK's head wound , it would not look like they had been blasted with the brains and blood matter of JFK . The limo was going very slow, if not a complete stop. There is a picture of the JFK's limo that shows the brake lights on . The Zapruder film never shows a slowing down or a stop . Hargis says he couldn't figure out why Greer slowed down almost to a stop. Hargis says maybe his (Greers) orders was to "Slow Down" !!!!!!!

[Steve Barber]

Sam Kinney was the driver of the backup car behind the JFK limo and he saw the back of the head wound as it was being blown out from JFK's head. Not only were the motorcycle patrolmen hit with brain matter and blood , Sam Kinney said the limo he was driving had brain matter on it as well as his left arm . Those people were hit hard with blood and brain matter . Jackie got on the trunk to possibly scoop up brain matter or maybe a piece of skull . Jackie did not remember going out on the trunk lid. Clint Hill said that Jackie was trying to retrieve a piece of JFK's skull. If the motorcycle policemen and Kinney were to drive thru a mist of JFK's head wound , it would not look like they had been blasted with the brains and blood matter of JFK . The limo was going very slow, if not a complete stop. There is a picture of the JFK's limo that shows the brake lights on . The Zapruder film never shows a slowing down or a stop . Hargis says he couldn't figure out why Greer slowed down almost to a stop. Hargis says maybe his (Greers) orders was to "Slow Down" !!!!!!!

  With all due respect,  Sam Kinney couldn't have possibly had "brain matter" on his left arm. Kinney's arm is not resting on the car door and there is no way "brain matter" would have landed on his left arm alone without splatter/spatter landing all over him.  Kinney could not have seen the back of the head erupt because the back of the head was not damaged.  The proof of this lies within: A. The Zapruder film. B. The Mary Ann Moorman Krahmer photo, C. The Marie Muchmore film D. The statements and interviews by Bill and Gayle Newman, Abraham Zapruder, Marilyn Sitzman and Bobby Hargis.  All of them mentioned the "side of the head" and three of them pointed to the location of the head wound, Zapruder, Mrs. NEwman and Mr. Newman.  All captured on film.

 No where do any of these people ever say anything about being "hit hard" by head matter.  That was started by Josiah Thompson who took great liberty at making Hargis'  description of the blood and brain" "hitting" him. It didn't "hit him" He drove into it as he indicated.  And Martin didn't witness the head shot, nor did he even know head matter landed on him until much later while he was directing traffic . It's in his Warren Commission testimony.

 No, Clint hill did not say that Mrs. Kennedy was trying to retrieve a piece of skull. Read his Warren Commission testimony, please. 

  Mrs. Kennedy did not exit the rear seat to possibly "retrieve" skull or brain.  There is absolutely no proof of this, only rumor, and her actions in the Zapruder film rule this not to be the case.  If you read what Hill said, he said he thought he "saw something come off the back of the car" but he couldn't be certain.  He then mentioned that a piece of skull was turned over to them the next day, but his description of whom turned it in sounds like the Harper fragment because Hill thought it was turned in by a "medical student", which would be Billy Harper. The Harper fragment was found several yards ahead of where the limousine was located at the time of the fatal shot.

  There is no proof of brake lights captured in the on position in any of the films or photos. That is just speculation. One frame of the Marie Muchmore film captured the right rear brake light at the moment of the fatal shot, but there is not enough there to prove that the brake light was on.  Aside from, this, we already know that the car was slowing to 8 MPH from the 11/12 MPH it was traveling down Elm Street until just before the last shot when Greer turned to look to the rear.  All films show the limousine slowing--including Zpruder.
   

[Matt Grantham]

  With all due respect,  Sam Kinney couldn't have possibly had "brain matter" on his left arm. Kinney's arm is not resting on the car door and there is no way "brain matter" would have landed on his left arm alone without splatter/spatter landing all over him.  Kinney could not have seen the back of the head erupt because the back of the head was not damaged.  The proof of this lies within: A. The Zapruder film. B. The Mary Ann Moorman Krahmer photo, C. The Marie Muchmore film D. The statements and interviews by Bill and Gayle Newman, Abraham Zapruder, Marilyn Sitzman and Bobby Hargis.  All of them mentioned the "side of the head" and three of them pointed to the location of the head wound, Zapruder, Mrs. NEwman and Mr. Newman.  All captured on film.

 No where do any of these people ever say anything about being "hit hard" by head matter.  That was started by Josiah Thompson who took great liberty at making Hargis'  description of the blood and brain" "hitting" him. It didn't "hit him" He drove into it as he indicated.  And Martin didn't witness the head shot, nor did he even know head matter landed on him until much later while he was directing traffic . It's in his Warren Commission testimony.

http://www.assassinationweb.com/ag6.htm

 No, Clint hill did not say that Mrs. Kennedy was trying to retrieve a piece of skull. Read his Warren Commission testimony, please. 

  Mrs. Kennedy did not exit the rear seat to possibly "retrieve" skull or brain.  There is absolutely no proof of this, only rumor, and her actions in the Zapruder film rule this not to be the case.  If you read what Hill said, he said he thought he "saw something come off the back of the car" but he couldn't be certain.  He then mentioned that a piece of skull was turned over to them the next day, but his description of whom turned it in sounds like the Harper fragment because Hill thought it was turned in by a "medical student", which would be Billy Harper. The Harper fragment was found several yards ahead of where the limousine was located at the time of the fatal shot.

  There is no proof of brake lights captured in the on position in any of the films or photos. That is just speculation. One frame of the Marie Muchmore film captured the right rear brake light at the moment of the fatal shot, but there is not enough there to prove that the brake light was on.  Aside from, this, we already know that the car was slowing to 8 MPH from the 11/12 MPH it was traveling down Elm Street until just before the last shot when Greer turned to look to the rear.  All films show the limousine slowing--including Zpruder.
 

 There is no way to compare how much material went behind than in front I guess you do not consider any of the people who saw Kennedy's wound before Bethesda is relevant  A few said up to 1/2, I believe that was Clint Hill The Zapruder film is obviously altered not to show skull debris

 The Harper Fragment was on the opposite side of Elm from the knoll

 Here is a good link of all those who stated the hole in JFK'd head was large and in the right rear Do you know of one witness who claimed otherwise before Bethesda? Even the overwhelming majority of them said otherwise

http://www.assassinationweb.com/ag6.htm

 With that evidence in hand we add that all the fragments were lost by the authorities including the brain, I have little idea what evidence you feel points otherwise? It is likely a head shot did come from behind as well, but there is no doubt the shot the blew out the back of his skull came from the front

[Jack Trojan]

Let's not use the word "proof" for anything re the Big Event. There is no proof that Oswald was a lone nut, nor is there any compelling evidence that he was. Not a single piece of evidence suggests Oswald was anything but a patsy.

As far as the limo stopping, I find it incriminating that the limo slowed down at all. That was the Turkey Shoot Point so 3 or more shots would sound like 1.

All you need to know is that the Z film was edited by the FBI then they returned a "copy" to Zapruder and Newsweek. Ask yourself where the original film is and why the FBI edited it before returning copies? The original film would tell all. So where is it?