LNers Can't Explain the Two Back-of-Head Bullet Fragments

[Andrew Mason]

There's no major change in where Connally is seated between Z161 and Z193. That's about two seconds.

You are avoiding answering the question.  You need to make your positions in your 3D model as shown here:

when viewed from Zapruder's position (without making any change whatsoever to the model) look like this:


If you find the resolution too difficult to work with, then compare your positions to the positions they were in on Houston Street:

[Andrew Mason]

You ought to restore that cropped image of my model to its full context ...

The inset scenes of the model are from the same SketchUp 3D model. One limousine. One Plaza. One set of human figures. It's for Z195. It's saved in it's own unique file. Nothing changed between camera-scenes.

No changes made in the figure models that appear in the inset pictures, if that's what you're implying. You really think I'm that dishonest?

Jerry, you are saying that the men in this position, with JBC turned to the right so that his shoulders are square to Zapruder:
or


are in the same position as this:


in which JBC is facing forward.  In z195 (I am using a clearer view in z193) he was turned to the right.  Earlier (z153) he was turned forward:

[Andrew Mason]

I see now. With regard to the shoulders of Connally, it appears this is how I showed Connally's torso (neutral) in Croft and repeated it in the Z195 model. I don't see it being a big deal. I will probably rotate the shoulders similar to Myers' version for Z193 and allow for a part of the shoulder ball to project back over the seatback, as Myers has done.

I can't tell if you have JBC turned enough in your recreation of frame z195 (the view from Zapruder's position) because the resolution is not sufficient.  But it looks very similar to his position in z193.

If so, you don't have to change anything in your model. Just rotate the view so we can see the two men up close from overhead and from the SN.

Your amount of rotation, shown (left-inset) in the graphic following, is ridiculous.

In my model the shoulders are over-rotated in order to get the lower back turned. But the bullet from the SN through JFK's midline passes just over the back of the jump seat which is well below the shoulder level.
..

[Michael T. Griffith]

Just giving this thread a bump to reinforce the point that lone-gunman theorists have no even halfway credible/believable explanation for the two bullet fragments in the very back of JFK's skull. Their own leading wound ballistics expert, Dr. Larry Sturdivan, has admitted that the ammo that Oswald allegedly used would not and could not have deposited bullet fragments in or near the rear outer table of the skull, especially given the fact that the nose and tail of the supposed lone-gunman head-shot bullet were found in the limousine, which means that any fragments would have had to come from the bullet's cross section.

I devote an entire chapter to this issue in my book A Comforting Lie.

I also address it in my article "Forensic Science and President Kennedy's Head Wounds" (link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jYMrT9P4ab2BtENAqI_0dQSEY6IJWczi/view).

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

Just giving this thread a bump to reinforce the point that lone-gunman theorists have no even halfway credible/believable explanation for the two bullet fragments in the very back of JFK's skull. Their own leading wound ballistics expert, Dr. Larry Sturdivan, has admitted that the ammo that Oswald allegedly used would not and could not have deposited bullet fragments in or near the rear outer table of the skull, especially given the fact that the nose and tail of the supposed lone-gunman head-shot bullet were found in the limousine, which means that any fragments would have had to come from the bullet's cross section.

I devote an entire chapter to this issue in my book A Comforting Lie.

I also address it in my article "Forensic Science and President Kennedy's Head Wounds" (link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jYMrT9P4ab2BtENAqI_0dQSEY6IJWczi/view).

Everything that u have ever said about anything has been complete krapp.
The lead fragments in xray in jfk's galea were from Oswald's shot-1 ricochet offa the guy rod of the overhead signals at Z105.
The 2 brass fragments of the jacket   were from Oswald's shot-1.
My comments on threads are 100% correct.
Your comments are 100% wrong.
The fragments in galea do not & can not sink the LNer theory.
The LNer theory is sunk by other facts/evidence, but it aint sunk by the galea fragments.
SHHEEEESHHHHHHHHHHH.

[Michael T. Griffith]

Everything that u have ever said about anything has been complete krapp.
The lead fragments in xray in jfk's galea were from Oswald's shot-1 ricochet offa the guy rod of the overhead signals at Z105.
The 2 brass fragments of the jacket   were from Oswald's shot-1.
My comments on threads are 100% correct.
Your comments are 100% wrong.
The fragments in galea do not & can not sink the LNer theory.
The LNer theory is sunk by other facts/evidence, but it aint sunk by the galea fragments.
SHHEEEESHHHHHHHHHHH.

Only one of the back-of-head fragments was in the galea (the McDonnel fragment).

I believe I've explained to you before the various problems with your guy-rod-deflection theory, such as the fact (1) that the angle of fire would have been virtually straight down, (2) that no gunman would have fired when an obstruction was near his target in his field of view, and (3) that JFK shows no signs of reaction until long after your posited guy-rod-deflection shot.

I do agree with you that the galea fragment could only have come from a ricochet fragment, but that fragment could not have come from a bullet fired at Z105. The lone-gunman theory has no bullet that could have produced such a ricochet fragment.

The Hickey-shot theory is nearly as problematic as the lone-gunman theory. No one who was in Hickey's car, including Powers and O'Donnell, heard Hickey fire a single shot. Have you ever heard an AR-15 fired? I have. The other occupants in the car would have heard Hickey fire a shot, if he had fired one. Plus, Hickey's ammo was checked and accounted for after the shooting.

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

Only one of the back-of-head fragments was in the galea (the McDonnel fragment).

I believe I've explained to you before the various problems with your guy-rod-deflection theory, such as the fact (1) that the angle of fire would have been virtually straight down, (2) that no gunman would have fired when an obstruction was near his target in his field of view, and (3) that JFK shows no signs of reaction until long after your posited guy-rod-deflection shot.

I do agree with you that the galea fragment could only have come from a ricochet fragment, but that fragment could not have come from a bullet fired at Z105. The lone-gunman theory has no bullet that could have produced such a ricochet fragment.

The Hickey-shot theory is nearly as problematic as the lone-gunman theory. No one who was in Hickey's car, including Powers and O'Donnell, heard Hickey fire a single shot. Have you ever heard an AR-15 fired? I have. The other occupants in the car would have heard Hickey fire a shot, if he had fired one. Plus, Hickey's ammo was checked and accounted for after the shooting.

My calculation of Oswald's angles based on above is .....
Shot-1 at Z113 is -34.8 deg. If at Holland's Z106 it is still -34.8 deg koz either way it is at the signals.
Shot-2 at Z218 is -21.0 deg.
Shot-3 at Z312 is -16.6 deg (but there was no Oswald shot-3).
So, how is 34.8 deg "straight down"?
34.8 deg is only 13.8 deg more than shot-2's 21.0 deg!

Kellerman heard jfk say my god i am hit at say pseudo Z120.
And Towner footage shows jfk with his right hand high up near his head (ie possibly reacting to getting hit in the galea) at about Z113. Alltho i suppose that jfk sometimes held his right hand hi up when waving.

Re the galea fragment, i thort that the xray showed a number of fragments in galea. But i have not spent time trying to understand the xrays. I simply quote others. Certainly u know more than me re xray stuff.
Are u referring to the 6.5 mm circular fragment? Its strange that this is the same dia as a Carcano slug. I believe that it is possible to get a Carcano bullet that has a brass end on the tail of the slug (in addition to having a brass jacket), in which case if that brass-end tears off (ie due to ricochet) then it could give that kind of fragment.

I did see a target board that showed how a Carcano ricochet off pipe gave 3 angles. Remnant slug took one angle. 2 brass halves of FMJ took another angle. And lead splatter took another angle.
All of which confirms a ricochet off the signal arm or guy-rod.
All of which confirms CE567 & CE569 (2 brass halves)(FMJ is made in 2 halves fused together to receive the lead).
All of which confirms xray splatter in galea.
But i cant find that photo of the target board. I think it is in the NOVA youtube. Would cost me $4 to do a screenprint.

That Hickey fired an autoburst is a certainty. That SS Agents etc in Queen Mary heard it is a certainty. That they lied is a certainty (except that Powers did not lie)(Powers chose his words carefully, he merely said that if Hickey fired then Powers would have heard the shot(s), which is a fact, but the inference that Hickey did not shoot is of course a lie).

Re the sound of an AR15. I wonder whether a 12 gauge shotgun is louder. I have done a bit of duck & rabbit shooting with shotguns.
http://www.sandv.com/downloads/0908rasm.pdf
https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/hhe/reports/pdfs/2002-0131-2898.pdf

Anyhow, not only did Hickey shoot a president out of season without a permit (he should have forfeited his AR15) , but he was not wearing earmuffs (he should have been fired from the SS).

[Michael T. Griffith]

My calculation of Oswald's angles based on above is .....
Shot-1 at Z113 is -34.8 deg. If at Holland's Z106 it is still -34.8 deg koz either way it is at the signals.
Shot-2 at Z218 is -21.0 deg.
Shot-3 at Z312 is -16.6 deg (but there was no Oswald shot-3).
So, how is 34.8 deg "straight down"?
34.8 deg is only 13.8 deg more than shot-2's 21.0 deg!

Kellerman heard jfk say my god i am hit at say pseudo Z120.
And Towner footage shows jfk with his right hand high up near his head (ie possibly reacting to getting hit in the galea) at about Z113. Alltho i suppose that jfk sometimes held his right hand hi up when waving.

Re the galea fragment, i thort that the xray showed a number of fragments in galea. But i have not spent time trying to understand the xrays. I simply quote others. Certainly u know more than me re xray stuff.
Are u referring to the 6.5 mm circular fragment? Its strange that this is the same dia as a Carcano slug. I believe that it is possible to get a Carcano bullet that has a brass end on the tail of the slug (in addition to having a brass jacket), in which case if that brass-end tears off (ie due to ricochet) then it could give that kind of fragment.

I did see a target board that showed how a Carcano ricochet off pipe gave 3 angles. Remnant slug took one angle. 2 brass halves of FMJ took another angle. And lead splatter took another angle.
All of which confirms a ricochet off the signal arm or guy-rod.
All of which confirms CE567 & CE569 (2 brass halves)(FMJ is made in 2 halves fused together to receive the lead).
All of which confirms xray splatter in galea.
But i cant find that photo of the target board. I think it is in the NOVA youtube. Would cost me $4 to do a screenprint.

That Hickey fired an autoburst is a certainty. That SS Agents etc in Queen Mary heard it is a certainty. That they lied is a certainty (except that Powers did not lie)(Powers chose his words carefully, he merely said that if Hickey fired then Powers would have heard the shot(s), which is a fact, but the inference that Hickey did not shoot is of course a lie).

Re the sound of an AR15. I wonder whether a 12 gauge shotgun is louder. I have done a bit of duck & rabbit shooting with shotguns.
http://www.sandv.com/downloads/0908rasm.pdf
https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/hhe/reports/pdfs/2002-0131-2898.pdf

Anyhow, not only did Hickey shoot a president out of season without a permit (he should have forfeited his AR15) , but he was not wearing earmuffs (he should have been fired from the SS).

Your downward-angle calculations are way off. Robert Frazier told the WC that a shot fired at Z161 would have required a downward angle of 40 degrees (5 H 171), so a shot fired over 20 frames earlier would have required a steeper downward angle.

You did not address the point that your scenario requires us to believe that the gunman fired when the guy rod was close to his target in his field of view. This is as strained and far-fetched as the speculation that the gunman fired during the split-second break in the foliage at Z186 (even though the human brain requires 1/6th/second to process and react to an image).

As for the back-of-head fragments, apparently you have not read my initial posts in this thread.

I reject as spurious your claim that the Towner film shows JFK reacting to a wound at around Z113 and that Kellerman heard "I'm hit" at pseudo-Z120. JFK is acting entirely normal from the time he comes into view in the Zapruder film until Z188 (when his cheeks appear to puff), and then his waving motion suddenly freezes at around Z200 and he starts to bring his hands toward his throat.

I reject the idea that Powers and O'Donnell lied to cover up for Hickey. When O'Donnell spilled his guts to Tip O'Neill about hearing shots from the grassy knoll, he certainly would have mentioned that Hickey fired a shot if Hickey had indeed done so. Both Powers and O'Donnell were quite critical of the Secret Service's performance during the shooting. I seriously doubt they would have covered up for Hickey, especially later on when they revealed that they had lied in the WC testimony because the FBI pressured them to do so.