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Author Topic: Succession  (Read 11955 times)

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Succession
« Reply #48 on: December 24, 2022, 12:18:07 AM »
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From an 2013 account ( Link ) by Michael L. Gillette, who helped conduct oral history interviews for the LBJ Presidential Library:

"After the swearing-in, Lady Bird Johnson placed the missal and the typed oath in her handbag and carried them to Washington. There she entrusted the items to Dorothy Territo, the White House staff assistant who collected material for a future presidential library."

"More than a decade later, in the course of my work at the LBJ Library, I learned that the elusive missal was discreetly hidden among the Library's holdings. I raised the matter with Harry Middleton, the Library's director, expressing the view that we should offer the book to the Kennedy Library or the Kennedy family. Why keep it if we could never exhibit it or even acknowledge possessing it? Harry concurred and contacted the John F. Kennedy Library. Dan Fenn, the JFK Library director, presumably after checking with the Kennedy family, responded that the LBJ Library should keep the missal. Since neither President Kennedy nor his family had ever used it, the volume had no sentimental value to them. Besides, its only historical significance related to President Johnson. The missal is presently on display at the LBJ Presidential Library."


From another site:

"It is believed the missal was a gift to the president from Father Albert Pereira, who administered to the small parish of St. Stephen the Martyr in Millersburg, Virginia, population 1,000, where JFK and his family spent their weekends away from Washington." ( Link )


Manchester's terming the missal a "bible" and Kennedy's most-cherished possession that JFK read all the time ( ::) ) reflects a "Northeast Liberal" bias and post-assassination reevaluation. It's less obvious in the Jim Bishop book. Poor LBJ couldn't catch a break from the Northeast Liberals (in the 60s, it was a concentration of political power and media--TV networks, Time-Life, publishers--that was literally located in the US Northeast).

That was public consumption. In Washington, LBJ benefited from long-serving Texans who were powerful in committees, as House/Senate Leaders, and as White House advisors.


Thanks again Jerry! That appears to be a reasonable solution to the mystery. And it accounts for both Manchester not having a more accurate account and that the missal was apparently offered back to the JFK family but they essentially said “keep it”.

Ladybird was a smart lady. And I imagine that, under any other imaginable circumstance, she would have asked Jackie, or someone else, if she could have the missal. Wow, this is an interesting aspect of the succession. I learned a lot.        Thumb1:

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Re: Succession
« Reply #48 on: December 24, 2022, 12:18:07 AM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Succession
« Reply #49 on: December 24, 2022, 01:48:17 AM »

Thanks again Jerry! That appears to be a reasonable solution to the mystery. And it accounts for both Manchester not having a more accurate account and that the missal was apparently offered back to the JFK family but they essentially said “keep it”.

Ladybird was a smart lady. And I imagine that, under any other imaginable circumstance, she would have asked Jackie, or someone else, if she could have the missal. Wow, this is an interesting aspect of the succession. I learned a lot.        Thumb1:

In all of the posts...the nagging question was never answered..... Was LBJ's swearing in legal....Since he didn't swear the oath while having his hand on a BIBLE.

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Succession
« Reply #50 on: December 24, 2022, 02:00:01 AM »
No, there’s no requirement for a bible to be involved.

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Re: Succession
« Reply #50 on: December 24, 2022, 02:00:01 AM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Succession
« Reply #51 on: December 24, 2022, 04:58:44 PM »
No, there’s no requirement for a bible to be involved.

Isn't that odd..... When a witness is sworn in at a trial, they are required to place their hand on a bible ....

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Succession
« Reply #52 on: December 24, 2022, 05:22:45 PM »
Isn't that odd..... When a witness is sworn in at a trial, they are required to place their hand on a bible ....



United States

The phrase "So help me God" is prescribed in oaths as early as the Judiciary Act of 1789, for U.S. officers other than the President. The act makes the semantic distinction between an affirmation and an oath.[4] The oath, religious in essence, includes the phrase "so help me God" and " swear". The affirmation uses " affirm". Both serve the same purpose and are described as one (i.e. "... solemnly swear, or affirm, that ...") [5]

In the United States, the No Religious Test Clause states that "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." Still, there are federal oaths which do include the phrase "So help me God", such as for justices and judges in 28 U.S.C. § 453.[6]



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/So_help_me_God





The No Religious Test Clause of the United States Constitution is a clause within Article VI, Clause 3: "The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States." It immediately follows a clause requiring all federal and state office holders to take an oath or affirmation to support the Constitution. This clause contains the only explicit reference to religion in the original seven articles of the U.S. Constitution.

The ban on religious tests contained in this clause protects federal officeholders and employees as well as the officeholders of "State Legislatures, and [...] the several states". This clause is cited by advocates of separation of church and state as an example of the "original intent" of the Framers of the Constitution to avoid any entanglement between church and state, or involving the government in any way as a determiner of religious beliefs or practices. This is significant because this clause represents the words of the original Framers, even prior to the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Religious_Test_Clause


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Re: Succession
« Reply #52 on: December 24, 2022, 05:22:45 PM »


Online Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: Succession
« Reply #53 on: December 24, 2022, 05:40:40 PM »


United States

The phrase "So help me God" is prescribed in oaths as early as the Judiciary Act of 1789, for U.S. officers other than the President. The act makes the semantic distinction between an affirmation and an oath.[4] The oath, religious in essence, includes the phrase "so help me God" and " swear". The affirmation uses " affirm". Both serve the same purpose and are described as one (i.e. "... solemnly swear, or affirm, that ...") [5]

In the United States, the No Religious Test Clause states that "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." Still, there are federal oaths which do include the phrase "So help me God", such as for justices and judges in 28 U.S.C. § 453.[6]



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/So_help_me_God





The No Religious Test Clause of the United States Constitution is a clause within Article VI, Clause 3: "The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States." It immediately follows a clause requiring all federal and state office holders to take an oath or affirmation to support the Constitution. This clause contains the only explicit reference to religion in the original seven articles of the U.S. Constitution.

The ban on religious tests contained in this clause protects federal officeholders and employees as well as the officeholders of "State Legislatures, and [...] the several states". This clause is cited by advocates of separation of church and state as an example of the "original intent" of the Framers of the Constitution to avoid any entanglement between church and state, or involving the government in any way as a determiner of religious beliefs or practices. This is significant because this clause represents the words of the original Framers, even prior to the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Religious_Test_Clause
Yes, as I understand it, it's just a tradition not a requirement. As you point out, it would be a violation of a person's Constitutional rights to require the use of a Bible. Or any religious text/document. Several Muslim-American Representatives have been sworn in using the Quran, e.g. Rashida Tlaib and Ilhan Omar. And I'm pretty sure jurors can refuse to swear on a Bible; they just have to give an affirmative oath.

Of course, I could be completely full of it. Not for the first time <g>. Merry Christmas.

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Succession
« Reply #54 on: December 24, 2022, 06:32:03 PM »
Isn't that odd..... When a witness is sworn in at a trial, they are required to place their hand on a bible ....

No, that’s not a requirement either. Nor should it be.

Online Richard Smith

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Re: Succession
« Reply #55 on: December 24, 2022, 08:01:09 PM »
Isn't that odd..... When a witness is sworn in at a trial, they are required to place their hand on a bible ....

They will probably start arresting people for that soon.  Like in "Europe."   

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Re: Succession
« Reply #55 on: December 24, 2022, 08:01:09 PM »