A time to receive and give (CE399)

[Dan O'meara]

This is not an area of the case I've given that much thought to in the past but my understanding of the evidence as it stands leads me to really suspect that CE399 was introduced into the evidence chain at some point.
As I don't believe Oswald actually took the shots that day I am, by default, a Conspiracy Theorist. For Lone Nutters it's plain sailing, your narrative has been provided for you, your thinking has been done for you and, although there may be small variations in specific details, the outcome is set in stone. As a Cter I am part of a spectrum of thinking that ranges from eminently sensible through to I'm-riding-a-unicorn-to-my-nearest-mothership.
I'm a minimalist, that is to say, things happened as per the official narrative except it wasn't Oswald who took the shots. Even this leads to massive, unprovable assumptions.
But now I find myself being dragged into a much larger conspiracy and I find I have to play Devil's Advocate against myself!
The arguments I've presented in the last few pages are leading me to suspect FBI agent Elmer Todd as the person who introduced CE399 into the chain of custody. This leads to a massive problem as far as a conspiracy is concerned:

If CE399 is introduced into the chain of custody at the FBI lab in Washington on the evening of the 22nd, how is this possible if the rifle this bullet was fired from didn't get to the same FBI lab until the morning of the 23rd?

It seems beyond unlikely that Todd had a slightly distorted bullet on his person that could be matched to the MC. As Andrew has already pointed out, it is the completely random discovery of a bullet at Parkland that has led to the possibility that CE399 could be introduced in the first place.
The idea that Todd had this slightly distorted bullet on him just in case someone found a random bullet at Parkland is a non-starter.

I've no doubt the Unicorn Crew will have an instant solution to this problem.
But I'm not in a position where I can say "Wow, that's such a difficult question to answer I might as well ignore what the evidence is actually saying."
Maybe Wright is wrong or lying when he says the bullet had a pointed tip.
Maybe Thompson misunderstood or lied about what Wright actually said.
Maybe Johnsen didn't know he was supposed to initial the bullet.
Maybe Rowley didn't know he was supposed to initial the bullet.
Maybe Tomlinson genuinely forgot what CE399 looked like.
Maybe Wright genuinely forgot what CE399 looked like.
Maybe Johnsen genuinely forgot what CE399 looked like.
Maybe Rowley genuinely forgot what CE399 looked like.
Maybe a bullet passing through two men, smashing bones on the way, doesn't leave a trace on the bullet.
Maybe a bullet can just fall out of a persons body.
Maybe Specter genuinely forgot to ask Tomlinson about the bullet.
Maybe, maybe, maybe...

On one hand, the evidence strongly suggests CE399 was introduced into the chain of custody, on the other, how could anyone have known that it needed to be introduced into the chain of custody.

[Mitch Todd]

This might be a bit of a quibble,

Yes it is.

No, not really.

However, in cases where complete information is available, then absence of evidence is absolute proof of absence.

Only in theory, because it can never been determined with 100% certainty that complete information is available in a particular case.

Let's see. I have this theory that I have a set of Bentley keys in my pantses pocketses. So whats does I has in my pocketses?

[turn out left pocket]

No evidence of Bentley keys here

[turn out right pocket]

No evidence of Bentley keys here, either.

I've run out of pocketses, and having turned them out have completed the task of gathering all available information about what is in them, so I definitely did not have Bentley keys in my pocketses. QED

[Alan Ford]

No, not really.
Let's see. I have this theory that I have a set of Bentley keys in my pantses pocketses. So whats does I has in my pocketses?

You has a strawman argeyment

[Martin Weidmann]

No, not really.
Let's see. I have this theory that I have a set of Bentley keys in my pantses pocketses. So whats does I has in my pocketses?

[turn out left pocket]

No evidence of Bentley keys here

[turn out right pocket]

No evidence of Bentley keys here, either.

I've run out of pocketses, and having turned them out have completed the task of gathering all available information about what is in them, so I definitely did not have Bentley keys in my pocketses. QED

Why am I not surprised that you once again have started to argue in your special tedious way. It's pathetic.... and, yes I know, you disagree. Bye

[Andrew Mason]

This is not an area of the case I've given that much thought to in the past but my understanding of the evidence as it stands leads me to really suspect that CE399 was introduced into the evidence chain at some point.
As I don't believe Oswald actually took the shots that day I am, by default, a Conspiracy Theorist. For Lone Nutters it's plain sailing, your narrative has been provided for you, your thinking has been done for you and, although there may be small variations in specific details, the outcome is set in stone. As a Cter I am part of a spectrum of thinking that ranges from eminently sensible through to I'm-riding-a-unicorn-to-my-nearest-mothership.
I'm a minimalist, that is to say, things happened as per the official narrative except it wasn't Oswald who took the shots. Even this leads to massive, unprovable assumptions.
But now I find myself being dragged into a much larger conspiracy and I find I have to play Devil's Advocate against myself!
The arguments I've presented in the last few pages are leading me to suspect FBI agent Elmer Todd as the person who introduced CE399 into the chain of custody. This leads to a massive problem as far as a conspiracy is concerned:

If CE399 is introduced into the chain of custody at the FBI lab in Washington on the evening of the 22nd, how is this possible if the rifle this bullet was fired from didn't get to the same FBI lab until the morning of the 23rd?

It seems beyond unlikely that Todd had a slightly distorted bullet on his person that could be matched to the MC. As Andrew has already pointed out, it is the completely random discovery of a bullet at Parkland that has led to the possibility that CE399 could be introduced in the first place.
The idea that Todd had this slightly distorted bullet on him just in case someone found a random bullet at Parkland is a non-starter.

I've no doubt the Unicorn Crew will have an instant solution to this problem.
But I'm not in a position where I can say "Wow, that's such a difficult question to answer I might as well ignore what the evidence is actually saying."
Maybe Wright is wrong or lying when he says the bullet had a pointed tip.
Maybe Thompson misunderstood or lied about what Wright actually said.
Maybe Johnsen didn't know he was supposed to initial the bullet.
Maybe Rowley didn't know he was supposed to initial the bullet.
Maybe Tomlinson genuinely forgot what CE399 looked like.
Maybe Wright genuinely forgot what CE399 looked like.
Maybe Johnsen genuinely forgot what CE399 looked like.
Maybe Rowley genuinely forgot what CE399 looked like.
Maybe a bullet passing through two men, smashing bones on the way, doesn't leave a trace on the bullet.
Maybe a bullet can just fall out of a persons body.
Maybe Specter genuinely forgot to ask Tomlinson about the bullet.
Maybe, maybe, maybe...

On one hand, the evidence strongly suggests CE399 was introduced into the chain of custody, on the other, how could anyone have known that it needed to be introduced into the chain of custody.

You have expressed the problem better than I could.  The problems with CE399 are not solved by saying it was planted by Todd. They only get more complicated. 

I realize that I am alone on this, but CE399 did not have to cause a lot of bone damage without deforming.

C399 is genuine because it was fired by C2766 and the trajectory of the first shot through JFK went to JBC's left side where there was minimal damage to JBC or to the car. That bullet had to have remained intact.  And prior to Robert Frazier receiving it from Todd, there was no way that this would have been known.

[Dan O'meara]

You have expressed the problem better than I could.  The problems with CE399 are not solved by saying it was planted by Todd. They only get more complicated. 

I realize that I am alone on this, but CE399 did not have to cause a lot of bone damage without deforming.

C399 is genuine because it was fired by C2766 and the trajectory of the first shot through JFK went to JBC's left side where there was minimal damage to JBC or to the car. That bullet had to have remained intact.  And prior to Robert Frazier receiving it from Todd, there was no way that this would have been known.

You have expressed the problem better than I could.

That's because I am genuinely interested in trying to understand what's going on and allowing the evidence to guide my opinion. Unlike you, who's only interest is to peddle your long defunct theory that only you believe in.

The problems with CE399 are not solved by saying it was planted by Todd. They only get more complicated. 

Wrong.
The litany of problems I have outlined in my previous posts ALL go away if it is assumed Todd placed CE399 into the chain of custody.
What happens is that a new set of problems arise.
Even if it is planted evidence, I have to assume that CE399 must have been fired from the MC found on the 6th floor. A bullet fired from a different rifle would have easily been detected by anyone else inspecting it and would have instantly rang alarm bells. How could this have been done if CE399 was at the FBI lab in Washington and the MC was still in Dallas?
No-one could have expected the random discovery of a bullet at Parkland so it is difficult to imagine CE399 would have been "pre-prepared." I find it most unlikely Todd had a stash of bullets on him that matched the MC before the assassination occurred.
Another problem that arises when CE399 is taken out of the picture can be summed up by the question - What happened to all the bullets?
Without CE399 there are enough fragments to just about make a single bullet. What happened to the other two bullets that were supposed to have been fired from the SN?

I've no doubt there are other significant problems I haven't thought of yet.

I realize that I am alone on this, but CE399 did not have to cause a lot of bone damage without deforming.

I've read this sentence a few times but can't make out what it means. Because you use he phrase "I am alone on this", I can only assume it is a reference to your dead theory.

C399 is genuine because it was fired by C2766 and the trajectory of the first shot through JFK went to JBC's left side where there was minimal damage to JBC or to the car. That bullet had to have remained intact.  And prior to Robert Frazier receiving it from Todd, there was no way that this would have been known.

Putting aside your obvious attempt to shoehorn your dead theory into proceedings, I think there is something to what you're saying.
CE399 has been fired through/into something. I doubt there are few who would disagree with that. If it is planted evidence I have to assume that whoever fired it was trying to mimic what they thought the bullet should look like. They were trying to replicate the damage a bullet should have sustained in a specific scenario. This automatically rules out trying to mimic a bullet that caused the wounds to Connally as, common sense would dictate, this would require a bullet with a smashed nose.
Was it assumed on the night of the assassination that there had been three hits - one through JFK's neck, one causing the damage to Connally and the headshot. If so, the only bullet they could have been trying to replicate would have been the one that passed through JFK's neck.
This, alone, creates a whole slew of new problems if CE399 was planted into evidence.

It's getting tricky.

[Martin Weidmann]

You have expressed the problem better than I could.

That's because I am genuinely interested in trying to understand what's going on and allowing the evidence to guide my opinion. Unlike you, who's only interest is to peddle your long defunct theory that only you believe in.

The problems with CE399 are not solved by saying it was planted by Todd. They only get more complicated. 

Wrong.
The litany of problems I have outlined in my previous posts ALL go away if it is assumed Todd placed CE399 into the chain of custody.
What happens is that a new set of problems arise.
Even if it is planted evidence, I have to assume that CE399 must have been fired from the MC found on the 6th floor. A bullet fired from a different rifle would have easily been detected by anyone else inspecting it and would have instantly rang alarm bells. How could this have been done if CE399 was at the FBI lab in Washington and the MC was still in Dallas?
No-one could have expected the random discovery of a bullet at Parkland so it is difficult to imagine CE399 would have been "pre-prepared." I find it most unlikely Todd had a stash of bullets on him that matched the MC before the assassination occurred.
Another problem that arises when CE399 is taken out of the picture can be summed up by the question - What happened to all the bullets?
Without CE399 there are enough fragments to just about make a single bullet. What happened to the other two bullets that were supposed to have been fired from the SN?

I've no doubt there are other significant problems I haven't thought of yet.

I realize that I am alone on this, but CE399 did not have to cause a lot of bone damage without deforming.

I've read this sentence a few times but can't make out what it means. Because you use he phrase "I am alone on this", I can only assume it is a reference to your dead theory.

C399 is genuine because it was fired by C2766 and the trajectory of the first shot through JFK went to JBC's left side where there was minimal damage to JBC or to the car. That bullet had to have remained intact.  And prior to Robert Frazier receiving it from Todd, there was no way that this would have been known.

Putting aside your obvious attempt to shoehorn your dead theory into proceedings, I think there is something to what you're saying.
CE399 has been fired through/into something. I doubt there are few who would disagree with that. If it is planted evidence I have to assume that whoever fired it was trying to mimic what they thought the bullet should look like. They were trying to replicate the damage a bullet should have sustained in a specific scenario. This automatically rules out trying to mimic a bullet that caused the wounds to Connally as, common sense would dictate, this would require a bullet with a smashed nose.
Was it assumed on the night of the assassination that there had been three hits - one through JFK's neck, one causing the damage to Connally and the headshot. If so, the only bullet they could have been trying to replicate would have been the one that passed through JFK's neck.
This, alone, creates a whole slew of new problems if CE399 was planted into evidence.

It's getting tricky.

I have to assume that CE399 must have been fired from the MC found on the 6th floor. A bullet fired from a different rifle would have easily been detected by anyone else inspecting it and would have instantly rang alarm bells. How could this have been done if CE399 was at the FBI lab in Washington and the MC was still in Dallas?

What makes you think that the bullet must have been fired that friday night? If we consider it to be possible that Todd switched the bullet, then why wouldn't also be possible that he marked the switched bullet at a later moment?But it's also possible that somebody else just scratched the initials on the new bullet, so that Todd could indeed recognize his mark.

It is a fact that the Parkland bullet and the rifle were both in Washington on saPersonay 11/23/63. It's possible the FBI knew early on that the bullet found at Parkland did not match the rifle. With Hoover already having stated that Oswald was the lone gunman, just how easy would it have been to switch the bullet on saPersonay and mark it with Todd's initials.

[Dan O'meara]

I have to assume that CE399 must have been fired from the MC found on the 6th floor. A bullet fired from a different rifle would have easily been detected by anyone else inspecting it and would have instantly rang alarm bells. How could this have been done if CE399 was at the FBI lab in Washington and the MC was still in Dallas?

What makes you think that the bullet must have been fired that friday night? If we consider it to be possible that Todd switched the bullet, then why wouldn't also be possible that he marked the switched bullet at a later moment?But it's also possible that somebody else just scratched the initials on the new bullet, so that Todd could indeed recognize his mark.

It is a fact that the Parkland bullet and the rifle were both in Washington on saPersonay 11/23/63. It's possible the FBI knew early on that the bullet found at Parkland did not match the rifle. With Hoover already having stated that Oswald was the lone gunman, just how easy would it have been to switch the bullet on saPersonay and mark it with Todd's initials.

What makes you think that the bullet must have been fired that friday night?

I don't think the bullet must have been fired on Friday.
That's the point I'm making - it can't have been fired Friday as the MC was still in Dallas.
As you say, the evidence Drain brings from Dallas doesn't get to the FBI lab until SaPersonay morning - for argument's sake, let's say 8:00am.
It seems likely that it is at this time a very large problem raises it's head.

Time for a bit of imaginative speculation:
Tomlinson finds the bullet with the pointed tip and calls over Wright.
Wright finds SA Johnsen and gives him the bullet. Johnsen even initials it.
Johnsen gives it to Rowley and maybe he initials it as well.
Rowley gives the bullet to Todd who also initials it.
And Todd gives it to Frazier who initials it and assigns it Q1.

Early on SaPersonay morning, the evidence from Dallas arrives and among the evidence is an unspent bullet taken from the MC.
The order has come down from the very top - "Oswald is the lone assassin, Make It So!"
Frazier looks at the unspent bullet and then looks at the pointy-tipped bullet, Q1, and realises he has a problem on his hands. The pointy-tipped bullet has nothing to do with the assassination. He looks at the few bullet fragments that have been recovered and realises he doesn't have enough bullets.
What to do?