A time to receive and give (CE399)

[Dan O'meara]

Here's another one for the "rabbit-hole nonsense" category.
Darrell Tomlinson, the man who initially discovered the bullet in Parkland Hospital gives a deposition included in the WC hearings.
Note - he is not called before the Warren Commission where a very obvious question might be asked of him - he gives his deposition at Parkland Hospital to Arlen Specter and a court reporter.
The sole reason Tomlinson is asked to give a deposition is because he is the man who initially found the bullet.

Have a guess how many questions he is asked about the bullet during his deposition.
A dozen, ten, five, one?
The answer, staggeringly enough, is zero!!
He is not asked a single question about the bullet he discovered that day!
Is he given CE399 to inspect to confirm it is the bullet he found?
No.
Is he even shown a picture of CE399 to confirm whether or not it's the bullet he found?
No.
He is not asked a single question about it.

The only other person out of the six involved in the bullet's chain of custody to answer a question about it is Frazier.
Wright, Johnsen and Todd are never called to give their testimonies (if you can believe that) and Rowley, who gives a very lengthy and detailed testimony, is never once asked about the bullet.

Frazier's testimony concerning the bullet found that day begins like this:

Mr. Eisenberg: Mr. Frazier, I now hand you Commission Exhibit 399, which, for the record, is a bullet, and also for the record, it is a bullet which was found in the Parkland Hospital following the assassination. Are you familiar with this exhibit?
Mr. Frazier: Yes, sir. This is a bullet which was delivered to me in the FBI laboratory on November 22, 1963 by Special Agent Elmer Todd of the FBI Washington Field Office.

Frazier is immediately handed CE399 and asked if he recognises it. Even though he is the last person in the chain of custody to handle the bullet (I am not counting the two technicians in the FBI lab who also handled it, even though they correctly put their initials on it).
Why isn't Tomlinson, the discoverer of the bullet, asked to identify it?
Why isn't he asked a single question about his most important discovery?
Those of us down in the rabbit hole are going to suggest it's because he wouldn't have identified it as the same bullet.

Specter starts off Tomlinson's deposition like this:

"Mr. Tomlinson, the purpose of this deposition proceeding is to take your deposition in connection with an inquiry made by the President's Commission in connection with the Assassination of President Kennedy to determine from you all the facts, if any, which you know concerning the events surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy..."

"All the facts"??
I don't think so.

[Andrew Mason]

So when O P Wright categorically denies that the bullet he gave to SA Johnsen is CE399 - that's rabbit-hole nonsense??
That we are supposed to simply accept experienced agents, Johnsen and Rowley, knowingly destroyed the chain of custody by not putting their initials on this crucial piece of evidence - that's rabbit-hole nonsense is it??
When Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen and Rowley refuse to identify CE399 as the bullet they handled that day - that's rabbit-hole nonsense??

All reasonable possibilities have to be considered. There are only 3 possibilities:

1. Is it possible that CE399 was not the bullet found on the stretcher due to accidental mixup with a bullet from some other source?

2. Is it possible that CE399 was deliberately substituted for the bullet found at Parkland?

3. Is it possible that the evidence as to the provenance of CE399 is accurate.

We can easily eliminate 1 because CE399, having been matched to the type of ammunition used in C2766 rifle (you don't even need to know that it had been fired by C2766), it could not have been accidentally substituted.

The no. 2 possibility would require one or more of the 5 people involved (Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen, Rowley, Todd) to be part of a conspiracy to plant evidence. A conspiracy would be required because there is no way that any of them could have had access to C2766 on their own after the assassination.  Johnsen went to Washington and C2766 stayed in Dallas.  So we look at the evidence.

First of all, we consider motive.  Why would a conspirator involved in the most heinous act of the 20thC plant CE399?  One answer is obvious: it would be to link C2766 and Oswald to the assassination and create a "patsy" on whom to pin the assassination. 

But it is also obvious that if CE399 was a plant, it must have been fired by Oswald's rifle prior to the assassination.  That only works if a slightly damaged bullet makes sense to how the shots, injuries and discovered fragments (in the future) would occur. So, planting CE399 before they had all that evidence, would be extremely risky for the conspirators and might just as easily provide evidence of a conspiracy if the bullet did not fit.

It would also not be known if there would be an opportunity to put CE399 into the evidence stream.  That only arose because a bullet was actually discovered at Parkland.

So now we not only have a hospital staff or Secret Service officer being part of an elaborate conspiracy, but taking the risk of tampering with evidence with the result of demonstrating a conspiracy if the evidence did not fit or if a natural opportunity to insert a bullet into the evidence did not arise.

Then we look at the inherently random events that led to CE399 being initialed by Todd (unless we have a doubt that he was telling the truth that he initialed it on 22/11/63 in Washington). Someone has to find a bullet.  Tomlinson only discovered it because it was blocking the washroom door and someone pushed it out of the way to access the washroom. Tomlinson then pushed it forward against the wall and he heard something fall. No guarantee that would happen. It could just as easily have stayed on the stretcher and found by the laundry staff (and given to someone not in on the conspiracy) or it could have gotten lost in the laundry system. If that occurred, Johnsen, Rowley and Todd would never have been involved. And if Tomlinson had given it to some other person than O.P. Wright or if Wright had given it to someone else who remained in Dallas, the chance that it would end up in the hands of a conspirator in the Secret Service would be gone.

Even if you get around the problems of inutility, risk and randomness with the no. 2 possibility and have a conspirator do something that makes no sense in order to possibly deflect scrutiny of the conspiracy or perhaps reveal it, there is a lack of evidence of such conspiracy or treasonous inclination of anyone and certainly not among these five people.  There has not been one iota of evidence suggesting that any of these five people were doing anything but trying to do their job at a time of great confusion and stress.

And that leaves the only other possibility, no.3. 

[Martin Weidmann]

All reasonable possibilities have to be considered. There are only 3 possibilities:

1. Is it possible that CE399 was not the bullet found on the stretcher due to accidental mixup with a bullet from some other source?

2. Is it possible that CE399 was deliberately substituted for the bullet found at Parkland?

3. Is it possible that the evidence as to the provenance of CE399 is accurate.

We can easily eliminate 1 because CE399, having been matched to the type of ammunition used in C2766 rifle (you don't even need to know that it had been fired by C2766), it could not have been accidentally substituted.

The no. 2 possibility would require one or more of the 5 people involved (Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen, Rowley, Todd) to be part of a conspiracy to plant evidence. A conspiracy would be required because there is no way that any of them could have had access to C2766 on their own after the assassination.  Johnsen went to Washington and C2766 stayed in Dallas.  So we look at the evidence.

First of all, we consider motive.  Why would a conspirator involved in the most heinous act of the 20thC plant CE399?  One answer is obvious: it would be to link C2766 and Oswald to the assassination and create a "patsy" on whom to pin the assassination. 

But it is also obvious that if CE399 was a plant, it must have been fired by Oswald's rifle prior to the assassination.  That only works if a slightly damaged bullet makes sense to how the shots, injuries and discovered fragments (in the future) would occur. So, planting CE399 before they had all that evidence, would be extremely risky for the conspirators and might just as easily provide evidence of a conspiracy if the bullet did not fit.

It would also not be known if there would be an opportunity to put CE399 into the evidence stream.  That only arose because a bullet was actually discovered at Parkland.

So now we not only have a hospital staff or Secret Service officer being part of an elaborate conspiracy, but taking the risk of tampering with evidence with the result of demonstrating a conspiracy if the evidence did not fit or if a natural opportunity to insert a bullet into the evidence did not arise.

Then we look at the inherently random events that led to CE399 being initialed by Todd (unless we have a doubt that he was telling the truth that he initialed it on 22/11/63 in Washington). Someone has to find a bullet.  Tomlinson only discovered it because it was blocking the washroom door and someone pushed it out of the way to access the washroom. Tomlinson then pushed it forward against the wall and he heard something fall. No guarantee that would happen. It could just as easily have stayed on the stretcher and found by the laundry staff (and given to someone not in on the conspiracy) or it could have gotten lost in the laundry system. If that occurred, Johnsen, Rowley and Todd would never have been involved. And if Tomlinson had given it to some other person than O.P. Wright or if Wright had given it to someone else who remained in Dallas, the chance that it would end up in the hands of a conspirator in the Secret Service would be gone.

Even if you get around the problems of inutility, risk and randomness with the no. 2 possibility and have a conspirator do something that makes no sense in order to possibly deflect scrutiny of the conspiracy or perhaps reveal it, there is a lack of evidence of such conspiracy or treasonous inclination of anyone and certainly not among these five people.  There has not been one iota of evidence suggesting that any of these five people were doing anything but trying to do their job at a time of great confusion and stress.

And that leaves the only other possibility, no.3.

Johnsen went to Washington and C2766 stayed in Dallas.

No. The rifle did not stay in Dallas. It was sent to the FBI lab in Washington that same day.

But it is also obvious that if CE399 was a plant, it must have been fired by Oswald's rifle prior to the assassination.

Yes, that's likely, unless it wasn't Johnsen and Rowley involved in switching of the bullet but Todd and Frazier were.

So, planting CE399 before they had all that evidence, would be extremely risky for the conspirators and might just as easily provide evidence of a conspiracy if the bullet did not fit.

Only if the conspirators did not control the investigation and evidence.

Then we look at the inherently random events that led to CE399 being initialed by Todd (unless we have a doubt that he was telling the truth that he initialed it on 22/11/63 in Washington). Someone has to find a bullet.  Tomlinson only discovered it because it was blocking the washroom door and someone pushed it out of the way to access the washroom. Tomlinson then pushed it forward against the wall and he heard something fall. No guarantee that would happen. It could just as easily have stayed on the stretcher and found by the laundry staff (and given to someone not in on the conspiracy) or it could have gotten lost in the laundry system. If that occurred, Johnsen, Rowley and Todd would never have been involved. And if Tomlinson had given it to some other person than O.P. Wright or if Wright had given it to someone else who remained in Dallas, the chance that it would end up in the hands of a conspirator in the Secret Service would be gone.

Your reasoning is sound but not complete. A bullet being found at Parkland may simply have been a bonus for the conspirators. All that was required to make it fit in the narrative was firing a bullet with C2766 into cotton wool or water. The FBI lab most certainly had the means to do both. That's the problem with just about every aspect of this case. There are always multiple possibilities.

Even if you get around the problems of inutility, risk and randomness with the no. 2 possibility and have a conspirator do something that makes no sense in order to possibly deflect scrutiny of the conspiracy or perhaps reveal it, there is a lack of evidence of such conspiracy or treasonous inclination of anyone and certainly not among these five people.  There has not been one iota of evidence suggesting that any of these five people were doing anything but trying to do their job at a time of great confusion and stress.

Indeed. The same applies to the DPD officers who searched Ruth Paine's garage and then falsified the record by claiming the BY photos were found during the second search (with a search warrant) when in truth they, or at least one of them, were/was found during the first search on Friday afternoon. How do we know this for sure? Easy, Michael Paine confirmed that he was shown a BY photo by an FBI agent on Friday evening and Fritz showed Oswald a blow up of a BY photo on SaPersonay morning, before the second search took place in the afternoon.

And that leaves the only other possibility, no.3.

No so fast... just because you can't imagine that a cop or Secret Service agent could do something like switching a bullet, doesn't mean you can eliminate that possibility. Hosty burned a piece of evidence because his boss SAC Shanklin told him to do so. The FBI under Hoover was many things but certainly not a democracy.

[Dan O'meara]

All reasonable possibilities have to be considered. There are only 3 possibilities:

1. Is it possible that CE399 was not the bullet found on the stretcher due to accidental mixup with a bullet from some other source?

2. Is it possible that CE399 was deliberately substituted for the bullet found at Parkland?

3. Is it possible that the evidence as to the provenance of CE399 is accurate.

We can easily eliminate 1 because CE399, having been matched to the type of ammunition used in C2766 rifle (you don't even need to know that it had been fired by C2766), it could not have been accidentally substituted.

The no. 2 possibility would require one or more of the 5 people involved (Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen, Rowley, Todd) to be part of a conspiracy to plant evidence. A conspiracy would be required because there is no way that any of them could have had access to C2766 on their own after the assassination.  Johnsen went to Washington and C2766 stayed in Dallas.  So we look at the evidence.

First of all, we consider motive.  Why would a conspirator involved in the most heinous act of the 20thC plant CE399?  One answer is obvious: it would be to link C2766 and Oswald to the assassination and create a "patsy" on whom to pin the assassination. 

But it is also obvious that if CE399 was a plant, it must have been fired by Oswald's rifle prior to the assassination.  That only works if a slightly damaged bullet makes sense to how the shots, injuries and discovered fragments (in the future) would occur. So, planting CE399 before they had all that evidence, would be extremely risky for the conspirators and might just as easily provide evidence of a conspiracy if the bullet did not fit.

It would also not be known if there would be an opportunity to put CE399 into the evidence stream.  That only arose because a bullet was actually discovered at Parkland.

So now we not only have a hospital staff or Secret Service officer being part of an elaborate conspiracy, but taking the risk of tampering with evidence with the result of demonstrating a conspiracy if the evidence did not fit or if a natural opportunity to insert a bullet into the evidence did not arise.

Then we look at the inherently random events that led to CE399 being initialed by Todd (unless we have a doubt that he was telling the truth that he initialed it on 22/11/63 in Washington). Someone has to find a bullet.  Tomlinson only discovered it because it was blocking the washroom door and someone pushed it out of the way to access the washroom. Tomlinson then pushed it forward against the wall and he heard something fall. No guarantee that would happen. It could just as easily have stayed on the stretcher and found by the laundry staff (and given to someone not in on the conspiracy) or it could have gotten lost in the laundry system. If that occurred, Johnsen, Rowley and Todd would never have been involved. And if Tomlinson had given it to some other person than O.P. Wright or if Wright had given it to someone else who remained in Dallas, the chance that it would end up in the hands of a conspirator in the Secret Service would be gone.

Even if you get around the problems of inutility, risk and randomness with the no. 2 possibility and have a conspirator do something that makes no sense in order to possibly deflect scrutiny of the conspiracy or perhaps reveal it, there is a lack of evidence of such conspiracy or treasonous inclination of anyone and certainly not among these five people.  There has not been one iota of evidence suggesting that any of these five people were doing anything but trying to do their job at a time of great confusion and stress.

And that leaves the only other possibility, no.3.

As usual, instead of dealing with actual evidence, and the arguments stemming from that evidence, I have presented in my previous posts, you have decided to counter with some sort of stream-of conscious, evidence-free, garbled speculation.

Fact - O P Wright, the civilian who hands over the bullet into the official chain of custody, categorically states that the bullet he handed over to SA Johnsen was NOT CE399.
From this we can assume the bullet carried by Johnsen and given to Rowley in Washington was the pointy-tipped bullet Wright is unequivocally stating he gave to Johnsen.

Fact - experienced Secret Service agent Johnsen and Head of Secret Service Rowley, both "forget" to initial CE399, a most basic prerequisite when handling evidence. And the importance of this particular piece of evidence cannot be understated.
It can be safely assumed that both men are aware that they must initial this evidence in order to maintain the chain of custody, so we are being expected to believe both men knowingly destroyed the chain of evidence. Key evidence in the murder of the President of the United States.
This incomprehensible failure is explained if, following on from the first fact, the bullet they have in their possession is NOT CE399, but the pointy-tipped bullet given to Johnsen by Wright.

Fact - When asked, Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen and Rowley, all refuse to identify CE399 as the bullet they handled that day. Not one or two of them, but all four. This seems incredible, particularly as Todd and Frazier seem to have no trouble whatsoever identifying CE399 as the bullet that eventually reached the FBI lab.
What could account for this incredible mass amnesia?
Go back to the first fact - the bullet that Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen and Rowley handled was NOT CE399. Very simple really.

Let's forget the stupid notion of CE399 just falling out of Connally's leg as if a bullet entering flesh was like a hole drilled in wood and if you turn it upside down the bullet just falls out. It's not worth getting dragged into the silliness of that argument.
Let's forget the fact that, even though the bullet is supposed to have traveled through two men, smashing various bones on the way, by the time it reaches Frazier there is not a speck of human tissue or blood on the bullet. Maybe some nice agent decided Frazier would like a lovely, clean bullet to work with.
And let's forget the fact that Tomlinson, the man who discovered the bullet, is not asked a single question about his discovery in his WC deposition. It's just too bizarre to contemplate.

And let's forget your unbelievably naive argument that the bullet couldn't have been planted because there was no conspiracy. If you argument were any more circular it would have infinite angles.

Let's just deal with the evidence and the arguments I have presented.
If you have counter-evidence from which you've gleaned a counter-argument, let's hear it.

And just to show you anyone can make up any old bollocks they like, here's my completely spurious argument for what would have happened if there was no conspiracy:

1) O P Wright, upon seeing a picture of CE399 would have immediately said, "That's the bullet, there can be no doubt about it".
2) Agents Johnsen and Rowley would have put their initials on CE399 as their most basic training would've required.
3) When asked to identify CE399, Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen and Rowley would have all sung in barber-shop hamony style, "C-E-3-9-9 is the bullet in question, and we ain't lyin'." Or maybe cheerleader style, "Give us a "C", give us an "E"...etc"

[Andrew Mason]

As usual, instead of dealing with actual evidence, and the arguments stemming from that evidence, I have presented in my previous posts, you have decided to counter with some sort of stream-of conscious, evidence-free, garbled speculation.

Fact - O P Wright, the civilian who hands over the bullet into the official chain of custody, categorically states that the bullet he handed over to SA Johnsen was NOT CE399.

It depends on how reliable and accurate O.P. Wright's memory was in 1967.  It also depends on how reliable and accurate Josiah Thompson's account of his interaction with Wright was. 

What I am saying is that real evidence fits together and makes sense.

From this we can assume the bullet carried by Johnsen and given to Rowley in Washington was the pointy-tipped bullet Wright is unequivocally stating he gave to Johnsen.

I am not sure how "unequivocal" he was in 1966. Thompson says "he seemed quite prepared to stick by his story" that the bullet he gave to Johnsen had a pointed tip. (Six Seconds in Dallas, p. 175).  I am also not sure how reliable we can expect Wright's memory of this to be 3 years after the fact. It wasn't very good 6 months after the fact (CE2011) because he couldn't recognize it when asked. But he also did not deny it like Thompson would have us believe he did in November 1966.

Having said that, it is somewhat surprising that Arlen Specter did not show Tomlinson the bullet CE399 or at least a photo of it when he examined him under oath in March 1964 (6 H 128).  But I don't see any reason to think that Specter was trying to hide anything. The point in speaking with Tomlinson was not to identify CE399 but to identify where the bullet that he found came from.

Fact - experienced Secret Service agent Johnsen and Head of Secret Service Rowley, both "forget" to initial CE399, a most basic prerequisite when handling evidence. And the importance of this particular piece of evidence cannot be understated.
It can be safely assumed that both men are aware that they must initial this evidence in order to maintain the chain of custody, so we are being expected to believe both men knowingly destroyed the chain of evidence. Key evidence in the murder of the President of the United States.

Secret Service agents are trained as law enforcement officers or investigators?  How do we know that?   It seems that no one wanted to take responsibility for it and kept passing it off until it eventually reached Todd who then turned it over to the FBI. 

Let's forget the stupid notion of CE399 just falling out of Connally's leg as if a bullet entering flesh was like a hole drilled in wood and if you turn it upside down the bullet just falls out. It's not worth getting dragged into the silliness of that argument.
Let's forget the fact that, even though the bullet is supposed to have traveled through two men, smashing various bones on the way, by the time it reaches Frazier there is not a speck of human tissue or blood on the bullet. Maybe some nice agent decided Frazier would like a lovely, clean bullet to work with.

I actually agree with you on this.  CE399 did not go through JBC.  CE399 was the first shot.  There is no clear evidence as to where it went after passing through JFK.  JBC said he was hit in the back on the second shot.  He never felt the thigh shot.  It would not be surprising if the bullet stuck in his left thigh and came out of his thigh when they put him on the stretcher.  It might have been spinning rapidly after exiting JFK's neck (it came out under his tie), struck JBC's thigh and kept going - landing somehow on the outside of his clothing. It is not something that can be determined because we don't have evidence of anything except the general trajectory.

[Andrew Mason]

Rather than this rabbit-hole nonsense, are there any "LNers" on the Forum who would like to start up a new Forum (or a sub-Forum here with invitation-only posters)?

There are some posters here who want to research the assassination and/or recreate it through 3D. No problem with an "LNer" like Mason who accepts most of the evidence and official findings in its totality but who has a unique theory, which I found interesting enough to investigate through 3D. Other "LNers" might want to make a full-scale build of the SN box arrangement or the paper package used to transport the rifle, or conduct Carcano firing tests, for example. Maybe some medical experts might be tempted to join.

The rabbit-hole CTs and impossible-standard "skeptics" can stay with the Forum or request their own sub-Forum.

If we were to have a discussion between LNers the main points in contention appear to be:

1. the timing of the shots, SBT, which shot Tague was struck on, whether and which shot missed (whether the head shot was the last shot)
2. why JFK recoils rearward after the head shot.

It might just be simpler to start new threads.

[John Iacoletti]

Jerry wants an echo chamber of people who all share the same faith-based dogma and pretend to do “research” that reinforces what they already believe.

Don’t let the door smack you in the ass.

[Martin Weidmann]

It depends on how reliable and accurate O.P. Wright's memory was in 1967.  It also depends on how reliable and accurate Josiah Thompson's account of his interaction with Wright was. 

What I am saying is that real evidence fits together and makes sense.
I am not sure how "unequivocal" he was in 1966. Thompson says "he seemed quite prepared to stick by his story" that the bullet he gave to Johnsen had a pointed tip. (Six Seconds in Dallas, p. 175).  I am also not sure how reliable we can expect Wright's memory of this to be 3 years after the fact. It wasn't very good 6 months after the fact (CE2011) because he couldn't recognize it when asked. But he also did not deny it like Thompson would have us believe he did in November 1966.

Having said that, it is somewhat surprising that Arlen Specter did not show Tomlinson the bullet CE399 or at least a photo of it when he examined him under oath in March 1964 (6 H 128).  But I don't see any reason to think that Specter was trying to hide anything. The point in speaking with Tomlinson was not to identify CE399 but to identify where the bullet that he found came from.
Secret Service agents are trained as law enforcement officers or investigators?  How do we know that?   It seems that no one wanted to take responsibility for it and kept passing it off until it eventually reached Todd who then turned it over to the FBI. 
I actually agree with you on this.  CE399 did not go through JBC.  CE399 was the first shot.  There is no clear evidence as to where it went after passing through JFK.  JBC said he was hit in the back on the second shot.  He never felt the thigh shot.  It would not be surprising if the bullet stuck in his left thigh and came out of his thigh when they put him on the stretcher.  It might have been spinning rapidly after exiting JFK's neck (it came out under his tie), struck JBC's thigh and kept going - landing somehow on the outside of his clothing. It is not something that can be determined because we don't have evidence of anything except the general trajectory.

It wasn't very good 6 months after the fact (CE2011) because he couldn't recognize it when asked. But he also did not deny it like Thompson would have us believe he did in November 1966.

Wrong, he didn't recognize it because he was never shown the bullet. S.A. Odum who, according to CE2011, is supposed to have shown CE399 to Tomlinson and Wright denied that he did so.

The point in speaking with Tomlinson was not to identify CE399 but to identify where the bullet that he found came from.

What bullet would that be? In order to identify where Tomlinson found "the bullet" one first has to establish which bullet one is talking about? And why not simply to both things? Identify the bullet and the location? During Humes' testimony, didn't Specter introduce CE399 into evidence subject to later proof, this is the missile which has been taken from the stretcher which the evidence now indicates was the stretcher occupied by Governor Connally?

Tomlinson was the only person who could identify the bullet and the location where he found it. IMO Specter did noy ask him a single question about the bullet because he could not risk Tomlinson saying on the record that the bullet shown to him wasn't the one he had found.