Users Currently Browsing This Topic:
0 Members

Author Topic: When the SN was built  (Read 37180 times)

Offline Martin Weidmann

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7444
Re: When the SN was built
« Reply #256 on: February 14, 2023, 09:52:52 AM »
Advertisement
I did find something interesting regarding Barbara Rowland's testimony. Here is an image of CE 2783 and a link to it at history-matters.com:





https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh26/pdf/WH26_CE_2783.pdf


Arnold Rowland testified to the WC in Washington DC on 3/10/63. During this testimony he spoke of (for the first time in the record) of seeing an elderly black man on the sixth floor.

Barbara Rowland testified to the WC via Belin in Dallas, TX on 4/7/63. She was asked extensively about the sighting of the elderly black man on the sixth floor. This was apparently news to her because, as she testified, Arnold never said a word to her about it. Babs indicated that she wanted to return to read and sign her testimony after it was typed up. The amendments shown on CE 2783 would have been her amendments that she made when she returned to sign the testimony. I don't know how long it took for them to type the testimony and call Babs back to sign it. But lets say that it was enough time for Babs to confront Arnie with a big: "WTF is this about an elderly black man on the sixth floor?" After Arnie clued Babs in, and Babs (and perhaps Arnie was with her) returned to read the testimony, she/they decided to add her amendment. Now, folks, do you really think that the court reporter really and truly missed that long sentence that Babs added to her testimony? There is not a chance in hell that it happened that way. I think that the more likely scenario is that the two Arnolds decided that the amendment needed to be added to give Arnie's testimony regarding the elderly black man on the sixth floor any chance of appearing to be being legit. If one wants to believe that the WC omitted this for some sort of sinister purpose, then why in the heck would they even include WC exhibit 2783 in the volumes?

Why was Belin so interested in questioning Mrs Rowland about her husband's testimony in the first place?

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: When the SN was built
« Reply #256 on: February 14, 2023, 09:52:52 AM »


Online Charles Collins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3792
Re: When the SN was built
« Reply #257 on: February 14, 2023, 10:50:08 AM »
Mr. BELIN. Again, I apologize for any---for in any way trying to embarrass you or anything, but your husband did see a man on the sixth floor and it is important for us to try and find out everything we can to test his accuracy as to what he saw, and so this is why I have been asking these questions.

Online Charles Collins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3792
Re: When the SN was built
« Reply #258 on: February 14, 2023, 11:02:48 AM »
I think that CE 2783 is very interesting. I don’t remember seeing anything similar in the record. Has anyone seen another example of an amended testimony where they included the actual document that the witness marked up? I think he staff of the WC must have been trying to tell us something when they decided to include this document.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: When the SN was built
« Reply #258 on: February 14, 2023, 11:02:48 AM »


Offline Alan Ford

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4820
Re: When the SN was built
« Reply #259 on: February 15, 2023, 01:09:06 PM »
The other change she made on the same page was put into the official record.

'The correction made in a handwriting different to Mrs. Rowland's obviously comes from Mrs. Rowland'

Quote
It is more like she completely reaffirms Arnold did not say anything about another person in the SN. She had to have known the impact on her marriage and did the right thing anyway. Everything about Arnold was BS and the person in the SN was just another instance of it. Barbara knew that and never completed the change.

'Mrs. Rowland's making the correction means Mrs. Rowland didn't want the correction made'

Offline Alan Ford

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4820
Re: When the SN was built
« Reply #260 on: February 15, 2023, 01:10:28 PM »
I think that CE 2783 is very interesting.

'The fact that Mrs. Rowland states she did not hear everything that was said tells us that Mrs. Rowland stated she heard everything that was said'

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: When the SN was built
« Reply #260 on: February 15, 2023, 01:10:28 PM »


Online Charles Collins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3792
Re: When the SN was built
« Reply #261 on: February 15, 2023, 03:54:40 PM »


Of course any answer would just be conjecture. But my theory on it is this. There is credible evidence, in my opinion, from Arnold Rowland of seeing someone who resembled LHO with a rifle at the west end of the sixth floor for no more than 30-seconds sometime around 12:15 but no later than about 12:25. So my much earlier opinion that LHO was sitting in the sniper’s nest the whole time BRW was eating his lunch seems questionable.

It appears to me that LHO probably went to the west end of the sixth floor, shortly after Givens left, to retrieve his rifle that he hid there that morning. Before he could take the rifle back to the already prepared sniper’s nest, BRW came up to the sixth floor and ate his lunch. LHO stayed quiet and out of sight near the stairwell on the sixth floor. If BRW had come over that way LHO could have left via the stairs. When the sounds of the ambulance arrival happened LHO probably felt the need to find out if that was the motorcade arriving. If it had been the motorcade, LHO could have fired shots from the west window before anyone could stop him. However, once BRW left, LHO was able to go to the sniper’s nest in the SE corner as he originally planned.

If the above is wrong, and LHO actually was in the sniper’s nest the whole time, and BRW had come over there and had seen him, he could have simply said he was waiting to see the motorcade. This is provided his rifle was not in the line of sight of BRW. Perhaps the rifle was on the floor against the tall stack of boxes, this would be out of sight of anyone not inside the tiny sniper’s nest but close enough for LHO to grab it when needed. I don’t see any scenario where LHO would kill BRW before the motorcade arrived. That would create too much noise and draw unwanted attention which would cause an abortiion of the assassination anyway.


I would not give Rowland’s sighting any credibility at all, but in reality, it changes nothing. The rest of the conjecture is entirely possible. LHO was obviously hiding there somewhere.


This thread about the construction of the rifle rest has given a new understanding to what LHO was doing between the departure of the floor laying crew and the arrival of BRW. A big question is what LHO would have done if BRW had actually gone over to where LHO was sitting. Would he have decided to not shoot at JFK or just killed BRW.




On the other hand, BRW was definitely not “bald” nor were Norman or Jarman.

BRW had a “high forehead” which could be, or appear to be, a receding hairline. This appears in the Powell and Dillard photos. This tends to make him appear older than he was.

Why then are you so reluctant to consider that Rowland saw Williams when he was still on the sixth floor?


I have considered that. Is that what you believe he saw?


Let’s consider the possibility that BRW was who Arnold Rowland saw in the sniper’s nest. To believe this we would have to believe that BRW failed to tell anyone that he was there. Could he have been too scared to let anyone know this? Perhaps so…

Let us take a look at the timing



Mr. SPECTER - Over how long a time span did you observe the Negro man to be in the window marked "A"?
Mr. ROWLAND - He was there before I noticed the man with the rifle and approximately 12:30 or when the motorcade was at Main and Ervay he was gone when I looked back and I had looked up there about 30 seconds before or a minute before.
Mr. SPECTER - How long after you heard the motorcade was at Main and Ervay did the motorcade pass by where you were?
Mr. ROWLAND - Another 5 minutes.
Mr. SPECTER - So that you observed this colored man on the window you have marked "A" within 5 minutes prior to the time the motorcade passed in front of you?
Mr. ROWLAND - Approximately 5 minutes prior to the time the motorcade came, he wasn't there. About 30 seconds or a minute prior to that time he was there.



So, if we look at the DPD radio transcript we can see that the motorcade was at Main and Ervay at about 12:22 (not 12:30). And Arnold Rowland said the last time he saw the elderly black man in the SE corner sixth floor window was about “30 seconds or a minute prior to that time.” Also, at this point in time, the ambulance was already en route to Dealey Plaza. Also, Norman and Jarman were likely headed for the fifth floor.


http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/D%20Disk/Dallas%20Police%20Department/Dallas%20Police%20Department%20Records/Volume%2004/Item%2001.pdf



So, let us entertain some additional conjecture about what might have been happening on the sixth floor. If we continue with the idea, stated in the earlier conjecture, that LHO was “trapped” on the west end of the sixth floor due to the arrival of BRW (to eat his lunch). And we add the idea that BRW, after finishing his lunch, actually went to the sniper’s nest and leaned out the window. It is conceivable that he might have seen Norman and Jarman below that window as they walked past the window and went around the corner of the TSBD. Then shortly thereafter BRW might have heard Norman and Jarman arrive on the fifth floor below and decided to join them.

LHO, if he was on the west end of the sixth floor and keeping quiet and out of sight, would likely have been keeping track of BRW and hoping he would leave soon. If so, LHO might have realized that BRW had moved to the sniper’s nest and that BRW couldn’t have seen the west end of the sixth floor from a sitting position in the sniper’s nest. LHO might then have decided that it was time to look for another spot to fire at JFK and moved to within 5-feet of the west window (where he was seen by Arnold Rowland). If the above is correct, the motivating factor behind the approach to the west window might not have been the commotion of the epileptic event, but BRW’s presence in the sniper’s nest instead. When BRW left, LHO would have been able to move to the sniper’s nest. And by then Howard Brenan had arrived and noticed LHO in the window. Here’s the timing:

~12:15 Arnold Rowland first sees BRW in the SE window

~12:15 Arnold Rowland sees the man with the rifle back a little bit from the SW window (for only 15 or 20 secs)

~12:22 or, shortly before, Arnold Rowland notices BRW is no longer in the SE window. BRW is headed for the fifth floor, and LHO is headed to the sniper’s nest.

~12:24 the ambulance arrives in Dealey Plaza and Brenan notices LHO in the window

~12:24-12:25 the Bronson film was taken and shows the boxes are already in the SE window


I am not asking anyone to believe the above conjecture has to be correct. Personally, I believe that Arnold Rowland just misremembered which floor and when he saw the elderly black man (aka BRW). However, if we entertain the idea that BRW was too scared to tell anyone that he was in the sniper’s nest before the assassination, then the above conjecture seems possible to me.

Offline Martin Weidmann

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7444
Re: When the SN was built
« Reply #262 on: February 15, 2023, 04:20:00 PM »
Mr. BELIN. Again, I apologize for any---for in any way trying to embarrass you or anything, but your husband did see a man on the sixth floor and it is important for us to try and find out everything we can to test his accuracy as to what he saw, and so this is why I have been asking these questions.

And why exactly would Belin feel the need to check with Mrs Rowland if what her husband said was accurate?

Why was it so important to "try and find out everything we can to test his [Mr. Rowland] accuracy?


Offline John Iacoletti

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10815
Re: When the SN was built
« Reply #263 on: February 15, 2023, 05:34:12 PM »
Mr. BELIN. Again, I apologize for any---for in any way trying to embarrass you or anything, but your husband did see a man on the sixth floor and it is important for us to try and find out everything we can to test his accuracy as to what he saw, and so this is why I have been asking these questions.

Funny how they didn't do anything like that to "test the accuracy" of Brennan's testimony.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: When the SN was built
« Reply #263 on: February 15, 2023, 05:34:12 PM »