When the SN was built

[Charles Collins]

There is way more wrong with Rowland’s statements than just that. You are just trying to make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. If you want and need to have Rowland’s statements in your conversation for whatever reason just do it, but there is no justifying it by picking and choosing parts of his statements you want and claiming you have proven something somehow. What his fabrications in his statement prove is he made up the additional person in the SN just like everything else.

There is way more wrong with Rowland’s statements than just that.


Yes, I agree.


You are just trying to make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.


No, I am trying to make a point (that, as far as the description of the man with the rifle, he got a lot of details right).



If you want and need to have Rowland’s statements in your conversation for whatever reason just do it, but there is no justifying it by picking and choosing parts of his statements you want and claiming you have proven something somehow.


I don’t believe that I claimed to have proven anything. I am simply pointing out why I have a problem concluding that “he made everything up” when it appears to me that he got quite a bit of it right. And when it appears that he told others about it right away.


What his fabrications in his statement prove is he made up the additional person in the SN just like everything else.


I disagree. I think his wife said that he sometimes exaggerates some things in order to make himself look smarter than he is. And I think that tendency of his affected his testimony. Some of the details that he claimed to remember were way more that anybody that I have ever known could have possibly remembered. And I have know some highly intelligent people, some of whom did have what would be called a “photographic memory.” And it is typical for those of us who are human (all of us) to misremember some things quite often.

[Charles Collins]

As already explained, Mr. Collins, his clear recollection of hearing that the motorcade was at Main & Ervay is what made possible a reliable timestamp.

As for time by the clock, Mr. Rowland expressly disclaimed infallibility here:

"Let me see, the exact time I do not remember, but the man, the colored man, was in that window until the procession reached Commerce I mean Main, and Ervay."

Pure Walter Mitty stuff, eh?

 

When you consider that after that he said this:


Mr. SPECTER - Over how long a time span did you observe the Negro man to be in the window marked "A"?
Mr. ROWLAND - He was there before I noticed the man with the rifle and approximately 12:30 or when the motorcade was at Main and Ervay he was gone when I looked back and I had looked up there about 30 seconds before or a minute before.
Mr. SPECTER - How long after you heard the motorcade was at Main and Ervay did the motorcade pass by where you were?
Mr. ROWLAND - Another 5 minutes.


His accuracy is eight freaking minutes off…

[Alan Ford]

When you consider that after that he said this:


Mr. SPECTER - Over how long a time span did you observe the Negro man to be in the window marked "A"?
Mr. ROWLAND - He was there before I noticed the man with the rifle and approximately 12:30 or when the motorcade was at Main and Ervay he was gone when I looked back and I had looked up there about 30 seconds before or a minute before.
Mr. SPECTER - How long after you heard the motorcade was at Main and Ervay did the motorcade pass by where you were?
Mr. ROWLAND - Another 5 minutes.


His accuracy is eight freaking minutes off…

Was Mr. Rowland given a chance to read the transcript and make any corrections?

[Jack Nessan]

There is way more wrong with Rowland’s statements than just that.


Yes, I agree.


You are just trying to make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.


No, I am trying to make a point (that, as far as the description of the man with the rifle, he got a lot of details right).



If you want and need to have Rowland’s statements in your conversation for whatever reason just do it, but there is no justifying it by picking and choosing parts of his statements you want and claiming you have proven something somehow.


I don’t believe that I claimed to have proven anything. I am simply pointing out why I have a problem concluding that “he made everything up” when it appears to me that he got quite a bit of it right. And when it appears that he told others about it right away.


What his fabrications in his statement prove is he made up the additional person in the SN just like everything else.


I disagree. I think his wife said that he sometimes exaggerates some things in order to make himself look smarter than he is. And I think that tendency of his affected his testimony. Some of the details that he claimed to remember were way more that anybody that I have ever known could have possibly remembered. And I have know some highly intelligent people, some of whom did have what would be called a “photographic memory.” And it is typical for those of us who are human (all of us) to misremember some things quite often.

" I am trying to make a point (that, as far as the description of the man with the rifle, he got a lot of details right).”
 
“I don’t believe that I claimed to have proven anything. I am simply pointing out why I have a problem concluding that “he made everything up” when it appears to me that he got quite a bit of it right. And when it appears that he told others about it right away.”
 
“I disagree. I think his wife said that he sometimes exaggerates some things in order to make himself look smarter than he is. And I think that tendency of his affected his testimony. Some of the details that he claimed to remember were way more that anybody that I have ever known could have possibly remembered. And I have know some highly intelligent people, some of whom did have what would be called a “photographic memory.” And it is typical for those of us who are human (all of us) to misremember some things quite often.”

 

You mean like this from the original A Rowland 11/22 Sheriff’s Affidavit:

“It must have been 5 or 10 minutes later when we were just looking at the surroudding [sic] buildings when I looked up at the Texas Book [cross-out -- Suppository?] building and noticed that the second floor from the top had two adjoining windows which were open, and upon looking I saw what I thought was a man standing back about 15 feet from the windows and was holding in his arms what appeared to be a hi [sic] powered rifle because it looked like it had a scope on it. He appeared to be holding this at a parade rest sort of position. “

 

Arnold states the person with the rifle is 15 feet back, (not 4 feet,) from the window and holding the rifle both in his arms and then changes it to “at a Parade Rest position” in the next sentence. 

The 3D Model is nothing more than an artist’s depiction of a man in the window, without regard for the description of the man and the rifle in the window, or the subsequent dimensions of the window.

[Charles Collins]

" I am trying to make a point (that, as far as the description of the man with the rifle, he got a lot of details right).”
 
“I don’t believe that I claimed to have proven anything. I am simply pointing out why I have a problem concluding that “he made everything up” when it appears to me that he got quite a bit of it right. And when it appears that he told others about it right away.”
 
“I disagree. I think his wife said that he sometimes exaggerates some things in order to make himself look smarter than he is. And I think that tendency of his affected his testimony. Some of the details that he claimed to remember were way more that anybody that I have ever known could have possibly remembered. And I have know some highly intelligent people, some of whom did have what would be called a “photographic memory.” And it is typical for those of us who are human (all of us) to misremember some things quite often.”

 

You mean like this from the original A Rowland 11/22 Sheriff’s Affidavit:

“It must have been 5 or 10 minutes later when we were just looking at the surroudding [sic] buildings when I looked up at the Texas Book [cross-out -- Suppository?] building and noticed that the second floor from the top had two adjoining windows which were open, and upon looking I saw what I thought was a man standing back about 15 feet from the windows and was holding in his arms what appeared to be a hi [sic] powered rifle because it looked like it had a scope on it. He appeared to be holding this at a parade rest sort of position. “

 

Arnold states the person with the rifle is 15 feet back, (not 4 feet,) from the window and holding the rifle both in his arms and then changes it to “at a Parade Rest position” in the next sentence. 

The 3D Model is nothing more than an artist’s depiction of a man in the window, without regard for the description of the man and the rifle in the window, or the subsequent dimensions of the window.

Arnold states the person with the rifle is 15 feet back, (not 4 feet,) from the window and holding the rifle both in his arms and then changes it to “at a Parade Rest position” in the next sentence. 


Arnold's view from his position on the east side of Houston Street would make it difficult to accurately say exactly how far back from the window he was. Arnold did revise his original estimate in his WC testimony to 3'-5'. And I had to look up the names and related images of the military rifle positions. I imagine most folks who were not actively involved in the military and it's lingo would have to look the positions up also. I think that this is a good example of Arnold Rowland trying to make himself look smarter (thought he knew something, but didn't) than he really was.


The 3D Model is nothing more than an artist’s depiction of a man in the window, without regard for the description of the man and the rifle in the window, or the subsequent dimensions of the window.

I don't think that you fully understand the utility or value of the 3D models.  Here are some images from my model without the lighting effects of the position of the sun at 12:15 on 11/22/63.


First is a screen shot of the application-in-use that shows the sixth floor with the sniper's nest on the left corner and the man with the rifle standing about six feet back from the SW corner window. It is simple to move objects around and simple to move the "camera" around to see what things look like from various locations.






Next is an areal view from above that shows the seventh floor of the TSBD (no roof) and a portion of the Dealey Plaza area without all the structures, etc. I have drawn a red arrow to a figure that is at a position ~210' "south" and ~62' "east" of the SE corner of the TSBD. This is the approximate position of Arnold Rowland according to my measurements on the Don Roberdeau map. This figure is at the street level, about 61' below the window sill on the sixth floor of the TSBD. The windows on the TSBD are mostly generic but resized to the approximate size of the TSBD windows.





Here is what the camera view, of the (5'-9") man with the rifle at ~6' back from the window, looks like from the position of the Arnold Rowland character as I described above. The rifle is not a Carcano but is the same length as the Carcano model in evidence.





And a camera view, of the (5'-9") man with the rifle standing ~10' back from the window, from Arnold Rowland's viewpoint.





I hope that you can begin to see what a valuable tool the 3D models are. Mine is rather crude compared to James' and Jerry's. But it has served many purposes for me. The first purpose was for me to get an idea of what Howard Brenan could see. There have been many more. You might have noticed a compass in the first image that allows proper orientation of the building so that the various views can be seen at a particular time of day (ie: 11/22/63 @ 12:30 pm). The positions of the shadows cast, due to the correct position of the sun at any particular time, have helped determine the time of day of some photos taken that day. The models are valuable tools, take considerable time and effort to create, but worth it in my opinion.

[Zeon Mason]

Propositions:

1. BRW was on the 6th floor TSBD from 12:05 -12:24
2. BRW was sitting on the low rolling cart and he was right up close to a middle window so that he could see Elm st and the sidewalk right in front of TSBD.
3. If BRW was looking forwards ,  his peripheral vision would not extend to include a point 5ft back from the SW window.
4. The gunmans initial plan was to shoot from
 The SW window taking Ada stage of the shaded corner. Upon getting to 5ft from SW window the gunman had LOS to BRW.
5. The gunman approached the SW window by slowly walking and thus silently arrived to a point 5ft away from the SW window
6. The gunman had not yet decided to use the SE window nor had he prepared it earlier by placing a box on the window ledge. Otherwise he would have gone around behind BRW to go initially to the SE window rather than going to the SW window.
7. Upon seeing BRW, the gunman retreated back several steps to be out of LOS and then he froze for a few seconds to consider what to do.
8. Rowland saw the gunman in this interval of probably  not more than 10 secs.
9. The gunman decided to go to the SE window and bypass behind BRW. He planned to wait on that east side aisle at a point within about 70 of the SE window , a point where he could have a peek at the rear elevators and the rear staircase.
10. The gunmans plan was to wait there and hope that BRW would leave the floor.
11. If BRW did not leave the floor, the gunman was going to hide his rifle in some boxes and then walk to the staircase and leave the 6th floor via staircase.
12. The gunman may have been a member of the floor crew, thus if he were seen after no shooting has happened then there was no reason for anyone to be suspicious of him.
13. Since BRW did leave the floor approx 12:24, the gunman then being within 70 ft of the SE window had 1 minute to place the box on the window ledge (to shade the sun ) and therefore the box was placed in time to be in the Bronson film approx 12:25.
14. The gunman was not seen in Hughes or Bronson film because he was sitting on box left of the pipes and thus behind a portion of wall.
15. The angle from Brennan position allows a LOS to a person sitting on the box left of the pipes.
 16: the gunman escaped via use of the East elevator and was going down when Baker and Truly were going up via staircase. The WC designation of Jack Dougherty as the operator of that elevator was not corroborated. Piper does not confirm speaking with Dougherty.
17. It is improbable  that Oswald was the gunman if Oswald was seen by Carolyn Arnold at 12:15 (or later) seated in the 2nd floor lunchroom.

[John Iacoletti]

How did BRW not see this “out of his LOS” gunman when he was leaving the sixth floor?

[Zeon Mason]

BRW left the 6th floor via elevator to 5th floor approx 12:24 and went to join Norman and Jarman who had arrived at 12:24 to their respective windows.

So the gunman on 6th saw BRW leave the floor and he placed the box within 1 minute on the SW window ledge. This is plausible if the gunman is within 70 ft of the SW window.

The shooter after firing 3 shots with a rifle that can fire 3 shots  in about 4 secs as Harold Norman heard them spaced per his film recorded demonstration of such spacing in his “Boom Clack Clack” sequence.

The shooter therefore was  NOT using the MC rifle that was found on the 6th floor  at 1:22 by Weizmann and Boone.

The shooter had to have used the east elevator to by  pass Mrs Dorothy Garner on the 4th floor

This scenario however, cannot be possible if Baker/Truly upon reaching the 5th floor saw the WEST elevator was gone and could see the East elevator was still on 5 th floor , to which they claim to have then taken the east elevator to the rooftop, and bypassed 6th floor without Baker even checking the floor.

This seems suspiciously like CYA and therefore imo the EAST elevator was the one that was gone and then Jack Dougherty was selected by WC to be using the west elevator which is questionable since Eddie Piper does not confirm having spoken or seen Jack Dougherty.

The 6th floor shooter has to get off the floor and down and out of the TSBD building which makes the staircase not probable due to the presence of Dorothy Garner near the staircase on 4th floor as early as 40 secs post shots.

Other alternatives:

1. The shooter was dressed like a plain clothes officer , possibly WAS  a legitimate officer who hid himself somehow on 7th floor and then came down later when there was much confused traffic going up and down the stairs.

2. The shooter used a vent shaft on the 6th floor to get himself down to the top of the passenger elevator on 4th floor thru the elevator shaft. Then into the elevator and took it to the ground floor. ( Armstrong theory)

3. The shooter has an accomplice holding the the East elevator locked on 6th floor after 12:25 just after BRW had left the 6th floor to join up with Norman/Jarman on 5th floor. The shooter ran with his rifle to the East elevator in 25 secs after last shot fired and he waa delivered to 2nd floor landing  by 50 secs post shots. The accomplice then returned east elevator to the 5th floor by 70 secs post shots. Jack Dougherty becomes a possible candidate to be the accomplice in this hypothetical scenario.

I hope I’ve answered Mr. Devils advocate question