Q9

[Dan O'meara]

We're not in Martin's thread. I'm asking you here. Why do you believe that CE 399 was not the bullet that struck both Kennedy and Connally?

How have you determined that CE-399 was not the bullet that struck Connally's wrist?

You're asking me "here"?
We're on an internet forum. You don't have to trudge across town to read Martin's thread. Martin's thread is also "here". It's a couple of clicks away.
The evidence and arguments that stem from that evidence are lengthy so I will not be reproducing them "here".
But here's a few highlights:

O P Wright (ex-Deputy Chief of Police), the man who handed the bullet found on the stretcher into the official chain of custody, categorically denies that bullet was CE399. As far as he was concerned the bullet had a pointed tip. As ex-police he knows a thing or two about bullets.

Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen and Rowley all refused to identify CE399 as the bullet they handled that day.

Johnsen and Rowley had already destroyed the chain of custody by not putting their initials on CE 399 and when given the chance to correct this error they both refused to identify CE 399 as the bullet they handled that day. Thus destroying the chain of custody,not once but, twice.
I believe the reason their initials are not on CE399 is because it was not the bullet they handled that day.
I believe the reason they refused to identify CE399 as the bullet they handled that day is because it was not the bullet they handled that day.

There's plenty more but if you're actually interested in why I don't believe CE399 was involved in the shooting you'll have to go all the way over "there" to read it.

Dr Gregory testified that the bullet passed through the bone. That the hole is not apparent to you in the X-Ray does not mean that it isn't there.

There is a channel through the wrist because something passed through the wrist and exited through the small slit at the crease of the wrist.
I'm not disputing that there was a hole there.
What I am disputing is that a whole bullet passed through the wrist-bone, the radius.

The determination that the bullet struck the wrist base end forward was based on wound ballistics and the sizes and dispositions of the entry and exit wounds.

Gregory says it entered base-first because the base was the only place the flakes could have come from. Nothing to do with wound ballistics or anything else.

The exit wound was a half centimeter in length. Your not buying it doesn't make it any less so.

Half a centimeter??
That makes it even more unlikely CE 399 exited through a slit that was less than the diameter of the bullet.
Gregory expresses his surprise that the slit is the exit wound as the smaller wound is usually the entrance wound.

Gregory said it was there. Was he lying?

Can you point out the hole through the radius on the X-rays. Because I can't see it.
Can you?

You can't explain it , yet there it is. Same goes for Frazier referring to it as a fragment.

That's the point of this thread, Tim. There's lots of contrary things about this aspect of the case that don't make sense.
It's not enough to try and just wish it away.

Gregory said two or three. He really couldn't recall.
The X-Rays prove nothing.
The foreign body envelope says fragments. Audrey Bell said four fragments. CE-842 is proof that Gregory removed four fragments.

CE-842 is proof that Gregory removed four fragments.

No it isn't, that's the point of this thread.
CE 842 is Q9 which was labeled as a single fragment. Frazier talked about Q9 as a single fragment in his testimony. The original FBI report states that Gregory said he only removed a single fragment and no more. The hospital memo states that Bell released a single fragment to Nolan.
Gregory never states he removed four fragments anywhere - one, two, three, but not four.

You're the one who introduced the "dodgy, heavily pixelated pic" here, not me.

Ermm,,,
No, Tim.
That was definitely you.

[Tim Nickerson]

O P Wright (ex-Deputy Chief of Police), the man who handed the bullet found on the stretcher into the official chain of custody, categorically denies that bullet was CE399. As far as he was concerned the bullet had a pointed tip. As ex-police he knows a thing or two about bullets.

O.P. Wright did not categorically deny that CE-399 was the bullet that he handled on Nov 22, 1963. In fact, he told Bardwell Odum that it appeared to be the same bullet.

Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen and Rowley all refused to identify CE399 as the bullet they handled that day.

Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen and Rowley couldn't positively identify CE-399 as being the bullet they handled because none of them had placed their mark on it. Tomlinson and Wright both did say that it looked to be the same bullet though.

Johnsen and Rowley had already destroyed the chain of custody by not putting their initials on CE 399 and when given the chance to correct this error they both refused to identify CE 399 as the bullet they handled that day. Thus destroying the chain of custody,not once but, twice.
I believe the reason their initials are not on CE399 is because it was not the bullet they handled that day.
I believe the reason they refused to identify CE399 as the bullet they handled that day is because it was not the bullet they handled that day.

If a chain of custody was needed, the one that existed would be perfectly fine. Johnsen placing the bullet in the envelope, sealing it, and attaching a letter to the envelope satisfies his link. Rowley did not open the envelope. He wrote a letter about his link. Elmer Todd confirmed that he received the envelope from Rowley. There is no chain of custody issue except in the minds of out of touch conspiracy theorists. CE-399 would not even need a chain of custody to get admitted in court as evidence. It's a non-fungible item that had been made readily identifiable by both Elmer Todd and Robert Frazier. Either one of their positive IDs would suffice. In fact, Frazier positively identified it during his sworn WC testimony.

There is a channel through the wrist because something passed through the wrist and exited through the small slit at the crease of the wrist.
I'm not disputing that there was a hole there.
What I am disputing is that a whole bullet passed through the wrist-bone, the radius.

Gregory testified that it passed through the radius.

Gregory says it entered base-first because the base was the only place the flakes could have come from. Nothing to do with wound ballistics or anything else.

Wound ballistics says that the bullet turned around and exited the chest base end forward.

The word tumbling, whether in air or in tissue, gives the impression that the bullet rotates many times, end-over-end, as it penetrates, but the bullet actually seldom makes a complete 360° turn before exiting a target the size of a human body. Most bullets will never make the full circle, no matter how deeply they penetrate. If it stops in the target, the undeformed bullet almost always comes to rest pointed backward.

Sturdivan, Larry M.. JFK Myths: A Scientific Investigation of the Kennedy Assassination (p. 246). Paragon House. Kindle Edition.

Half a centimeter??
That makes it even more unlikely CE 399 exited through a slit that was less than the diameter of the bullet.

Why?

Can you point out the hole through the radius on the X-rays. Because I can't see it.
Can you?

I can make out what looks to be a hole in the radius. There are actually a couple of candidates for a hole on one of the X-Rays.

CE-842 is proof that Gregory removed four fragments.

No it isn't, that's the point of this thread.
CE 842 is Q9 which was labeled as a single fragment. Frazier talked about Q9 as a single fragment in his testimony. The original FBI report states that Gregory said he only removed a single fragment and no more. The hospital memo states that Bell released a single fragment to Nolan.
Gregory never states he removed four fragments anywhere - one, two, three, but not four.

CE-842 is four fragments. CE-842 was submitted into evidence during Frazier's testimony. CE-842 is proof that Dr. Gregory removed four fragments from Connally.

Ermm,,,
No, Tim.
That was definitely you.

That is False. You introduced it here three days before I even joined the thread.

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,3681.msg144193.html#msg144193

[Martin Weidmann]

O.P. Wright did not categorically deny that CE-399 was the bullet that he handled on Nov 22, 1963. In fact, he told Bardwell Odum that it appeared to be the same bullet.

Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen and Rowley couldn't positively identify CE-399 as being the bullet they handled because none of them had placed their mark on it. Tomlinson and Wright both did say that it looked to be the same bullet though.

If a chain of custody was needed, the one that existed would be perfectly fine. Johnsen placing the bullet in the envelope, sealing it, and attaching a letter to the envelope satisfies his link. Rowley did not open the envelope. He wrote a letter about his link. Elmer Todd confirmed that he received the envelope from Rowley. There is no chain of custody issue except in the minds of out of touch conspiracy theorists. CE-399 would not even need a chain of custody to get admitted in court as evidence. It's a non-fungible item that had been made readily identifiable by both Elmer Todd and Robert Frazier. Either one of their positive IDs would suffice. In fact, Frazier positively identified it during his sworn WC testimony.

Gregory testified that it passed through the radius.

Wound ballistics says that the bullet turned around and exited the chest base end forward.

The word tumbling, whether in air or in tissue, gives the impression that the bullet rotates many times, end-over-end, as it penetrates, but the bullet actually seldom makes a complete 360° turn before exiting a target the size of a human body. Most bullets will never make the full circle, no matter how deeply they penetrate. If it stops in the target, the undeformed bullet almost always comes to rest pointed backward.

Sturdivan, Larry M.. JFK Myths: A Scientific Investigation of the Kennedy Assassination (p. 246). Paragon House. Kindle Edition.

Why?

I can make out what looks to be a hole in the radius. There are actually a couple of candidates for a hole on one of the X-Rays.


CE-842 is four fragments. CE-842 was submitted into evidence during Frazier's testimony. CE-842 is proof that Dr. Gregory removed four fragments from Connally.

That is False. You introduced it here three days before I even joined the thread.

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,3681.msg144193.html#msg144193

In fact, he told Bardwell Odum that it appeared to be the same bullet.

No he didn't. That's just what it said in CE2011. Odum denied that he ever had or showed CE399 to anybody. The FBI just made it up to satisfy the WC. Odum's name is not in the chain of custody for CE399.

Tomlinson and Wright both did say that it looked to be the same bullet though.

Again, no they didn't. Shanklin's airtel proves this is false and Tomlinson is on record twice saying that he was shown a bullet only once, by SAC Shanklin, about a week after the assassination. Tomlinson and Wright never told Odum anything of the kind.

If a chain of custody was needed, the one that existed would be perfectly fine. Johnsen placing the bullet in the envelope, sealing it, and attaching a letter to the envelope satisfies his link. Rowley did not open the envelope. He wrote a letter about his link. Elmer Todd confirmed that he received the envelope from Rowley. There is no chain of custody issue except in the minds of out of touch conspiracy theorists. CE-399 would not even need a chain of custody to get admitted in court as evidence. It's a non-fungible item that had been made readily identifiable by both Elmer Todd and Robert Frazier. Either one of their positive IDs would suffice. In fact, Frazier positively identified it during his sworn WC testimony.

Total BS... Todd and Frazier received a bullet in Washington. There is not a shred of evidence that it was that same bullet Tomlinson found on a stretcher at Parkland and Frazier's testimony most certainly did not confirm that it was.

But even if your fairytale story was remotely true, then why did the WC ask the FBI for authentication of several pieces of evidence including CE399? You ran from this question last time. Let's see if you can answer it now!

[Tim Nickerson]

In fact, he told Bardwell Odum that it appeared to be the same bullet.

No he didn't. That's just what it said in CE2011. Odum denied that he ever had or showed CE399 to anybody. The FBI just made it up to satisfy the WC. Odum's name is not in the chain of custody for CE399.

Tomlinson and Wright both did say that it looked to be the same bullet though.

Again, no they didn't. Shanklin's airtel proves this is false and Tomlinson is on record twice saying that he was shown a bullet only once, by SAC Shanklin, about a week after the assassination. Tomlinson and Wright never told Odum anything of the kind.

If a chain of custody was needed, the one that existed would be perfectly fine. Johnsen placing the bullet in the envelope, sealing it, and attaching a letter to the envelope satisfies his link. Rowley did not open the envelope. He wrote a letter about his link. Elmer Todd confirmed that he received the envelope from Rowley. There is no chain of custody issue except in the minds of out of touch conspiracy theorists. CE-399 would not even need a chain of custody to get admitted in court as evidence. It's a non-fungible item that had been made readily identifiable by both Elmer Todd and Robert Frazier. Either one of their positive IDs would suffice. In fact, Frazier positively identified it during his sworn WC testimony.

Total BS... Todd and Frazier received a bullet in Washington. There is not a shred of evidence that it was that same bullet Tomlinson found on a stretcher at Parkland and Frazier's testimony most certainly did not confirm that it was.

But even if your fairytale story was remotely true, then why did the WC ask the FBI for authentication of several pieces of evidence including CE399? You ran from this question last time. Let's see if you can answer it now!

[Martin Weidmann]

But even if your fairytale story was remotely true, then why did the WC ask the FBI for authentication of several pieces of evidence including CE399?

[John Iacoletti]

But even if your fairytale story was remotely true, then why did the WC ask the FBI for authentication of several pieces of evidence including CE399?

Right?

They must have thought that the authentication of evidence matters.

But then they were somehow satisfied with an anonymously written letter full of hearsay.

[Dan O'meara]

O.P. Wright did not categorically deny that CE-399 was the bullet that he handled on Nov 22, 1963. In fact, he told Bardwell Odum that it appeared to be the same bullet.

Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen and Rowley couldn't positively identify CE-399 as being the bullet they handled because none of them had placed their mark on it. Tomlinson and Wright both did say that it looked to be the same bullet though.

If a chain of custody was needed, the one that existed would be perfectly fine. Johnsen placing the bullet in the envelope, sealing it, and attaching a letter to the envelope satisfies his link. Rowley did not open the envelope. He wrote a letter about his link. Elmer Todd confirmed that he received the envelope from Rowley. There is no chain of custody issue except in the minds of out of touch conspiracy theorists. CE-399 would not even need a chain of custody to get admitted in court as evidence. It's a non-fungible item that had been made readily identifiable by both Elmer Todd and Robert Frazier. Either one of their positive IDs would suffice. In fact, Frazier positively identified it during his sworn WC testimony.

Gregory testified that it passed through the radius.

Wound ballistics says that the bullet turned around and exited the chest base end forward.

The word tumbling, whether in air or in tissue, gives the impression that the bullet rotates many times, end-over-end, as it penetrates, but the bullet actually seldom makes a complete 360° turn before exiting a target the size of a human body. Most bullets will never make the full circle, no matter how deeply they penetrate. If it stops in the target, the undeformed bullet almost always comes to rest pointed backward.

Sturdivan, Larry M.. JFK Myths: A Scientific Investigation of the Kennedy Assassination (p. 246). Paragon House. Kindle Edition.

Why?

I can make out what looks to be a hole in the radius. There are actually a couple of candidates for a hole on one of the X-Rays.


CE-842 is four fragments. CE-842 was submitted into evidence during Frazier's testimony. CE-842 is proof that Dr. Gregory removed four fragments from Connally.

That is False. You introduced it here three days before I even joined the thread.



https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,3681.msg144193.html#msg144193

O.P. Wright did not categorically deny that CE-399 was the bullet that he handled on Nov 22, 1963.

Wrong.
O P Wright categorically denied CE 399 was the bullet he handed to SA Johnsen on the day of the assassination more than once.
Ironically, you have posted a video of Josiah Thompson during which he describes Wright categorically denying CE 399 was the bullet he handled that day - once to Thompson and once in front of other witnesses.

CE-842 is four fragments. CE-842 was submitted into evidence during Frazier's testimony. CE-842 is proof that Dr. Gregory removed four fragments from Connally.

Wrong.
CE 842 is entered into evidence as a single fragment.
It is only referred to as a single fragment.
Gregory never refers to removing four fragments from JBC's wrist and CE 842 is entered into the evidence as a single fragment.

Mr. Specter: Was a fragment of metal brought to you which was identified as coming from the wrist of Governor Connally?
Mr. Frazier: It was identified to me as having come from the arm of Governor Connally.
Mr. Specter: Will you produce that fragment at this time, please?
Mr. Frazier: This one does not have a Commission number as yet.
Mr. Specter: May it please the Commission, I would like to have this fragment marked as Commission Exhibit 842.
(Commission Exhibit No. 842 was marked for identification and received in evidence.)
Mr. Specter: Now, referring to a fragment heretofore marked as Q9 for FBI record purposes, and now marked as Commission Exhibit No. 842, will you describe that fragment for us, please?
Mr. Frazier: Yes, sir; this is a small fragment of metal which weighed one-half a grain when I first examined it in the laboratory. It is a piece of lead, and could have been a part of a bullet or a core of a bullet.


Wound ballistics says that the bullet turned around and exited the chest base end forward.

The word tumbling, whether in air or in tissue, gives the impression that the bullet rotates many times, end-over-end, as it penetrates, but the bullet actually seldom makes a complete 360° turn before exiting a target the size of a human body. Most bullets will never make the full circle, no matter how deeply they penetrate. If it stops in the target, the undeformed bullet almost always comes to rest pointed backward.

I'm not sure if you're offering this passage from Sturdivan as proof the bullet exited JBC's chest base end forward.

Why?

Why do I find it confusing that a 6.5 mm rotating bullet leaves a 5 mm slit?
Why don't you find it confusing?

[Tim Nickerson]

O.P. Wright did not categorically deny that CE-399 was the bullet that he handled on Nov 22, 1963.

Wrong.
O P Wright categorically denied CE 399 was the bullet he handed to SA Johnsen on the day of the assassination more than once.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11653#relPageId=3

Wrong.
CE 842 is entered into evidence as a single fragment.
It is only referred to as a single fragment.
Gregory never refers to removing four fragments from JBC's wrist and CE 842 is entered into the evidence as a single fragment.

CE-842 is four fragments. Gregory never said that he only removed one fragment.

Wound ballistics says that the bullet turned around and exited the chest base end forward.

The word tumbling, whether in air or in tissue, gives the impression that the bullet rotates many times, end-over-end, as it penetrates, but the bullet actually seldom makes a complete 360° turn before exiting a target the size of a human body. Most bullets will never make the full circle, no matter how deeply they penetrate. If it stops in the target, the undeformed bullet almost always comes to rest pointed backward.

I'm not sure if you're offering this passage from Sturdivan as proof the bullet exited JBC's chest base end forward.

 the undeformed bullet almost always comes to rest pointed backward


What part of that don't you understand?

Why do I find it confusing that a 6.5 mm rotating bullet leaves a 5 mm slit?
Why don't you find it confusing?

I'm not a wound ballistics expert.