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Author Topic: Q9  (Read 9953 times)

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Q9
« Reply #40 on: April 24, 2023, 11:25:11 PM »
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https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11653#relPageId=3


Hilarious. Odum never talked to Tomlinson and Wright and never showed them CE399.

Odum's name is also not included in the chain of evidence for CE399. If he ever had the bullet, his name should have been in the chain of custody. All the chain shows is that, in June 1964, CE399 was send to Dallas and then returned.

CE2011, which includes the part you've shown us, is nothing more than a fabrication by some unidentified FBI officer in Washington. The reason why it is clearly false is that the content does not match Dallas SAC Shanklin's airtel.

So, for CE2011 to be correct, Odum must have had CE399 without adding his name to the chain of custody. He must have shown the bullet to Tomlinson and Wright, not producing the usual FD 302 reports, completely forgetting all about the meeting later, and provide incorrect information to his superior, Shanklin.

A likely story....

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Re: Q9
« Reply #40 on: April 24, 2023, 11:25:11 PM »


Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: Q9
« Reply #41 on: April 24, 2023, 11:27:50 PM »


https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11653#relPageId=3

Did you watch the Thompson video you posted where he reports Wright categorically denying CE 399 being the bullet he handled twice?
Are you aware Odum denied ever handling CE 399 and that he never showed it to anyone?
Are you aware that no FD-302 was ever raised by Odum, confirming his claim he never showed anyone CE 399?
Are you aware the report you posted is completely anonymous?
Are you aware of the suppressed airtel revealing Wright and Tomlinson didn't recognise CE 399 as the bullet they discovered that day?

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CE-842 is four fragments. Gregory never said that he only removed one fragment.

Then how do you explain the Frazier testimony you neglected to include in your response.
Particularly where CE-842 is entered into evidence as a single fragment.
How do you explain that?


Mr. Specter: Was a fragment of metal brought to you which was identified as coming from the wrist of Governor Connally?
Mr. Frazier: It was identified to me as having come from the arm of Governor Connally.
Mr. Specter: Will you produce that fragment at this time, please?
Mr. Frazier: This one does not have a Commission number as yet.
Mr. Specter: May it please the Commission, I would like to have this fragment marked as Commission Exhibit 842.
(Commission Exhibit No. 842 was marked for identification and received in evidence.)
Mr. Specter: Now, referring to a fragment heretofore marked as Q9 for FBI record purposes, and now marked as Commission Exhibit No. 842, will you describe that fragment for us, please?
Mr. Frazier: Yes, sir; this is a small fragment of metal which weighed one-half a grain when I first examined it in the laboratory. It is a piece of lead, and could have been a part of a bullet or a core of a bullet.


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the undeformed bullet almost always comes to rest pointed backward


What part of that don't you understand?

The part I don't understand is whether this passage specifically relates to Connally's injuries or is it just a generalisation about tumbling bullets.

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I'm not a wound ballistics expert.

Or a rocket scientist.

Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: Q9
« Reply #42 on: April 25, 2023, 12:26:14 AM »
Did you watch the Thompson video you posted where he reports Wright categorically denying CE 399 being the bullet he handled twice?

Are you aware Odum denied ever handling CE 399 and that he never showed it to anyone?

Did you watch the Thompson video where he reports that Odum believed that he did handle CE 399 and that he showed it to Wright?

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Are you aware that no FD-302 was ever raised by Odum, confirming his claim he never showed anyone CE 399?
Are you aware the report you posted is completely anonymous?
Are you aware of the suppressed airtel revealing Wright and Tomlinson didn't recognise CE 399 as the bullet they discovered that day?

Are you aware that no FD-3O2 containing the info in the Airtel has ever been found? Someone within the FBI had to have shown Wright and Tomlinson the bullet. Right? Where is that FD-302? What did Johnsen and Rowley have to say about CE 399?  How do you know? The information in that Airtel does not conflict with the info on page 2 of WC Document 1258. In fact, the info in the AirTel obviously comes from the same source. If you maintain otherwise, then provide an FD-302 to back you up. Neither Wright not Tomlinson could positively identify CE 399 as the bullet that they handled. But they both said that it appeared to be the same one.

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Then how do you explain the Frazier testimony you neglected to include in your response.
Particularly where CE-842 is entered into evidence as a single fragment.
How do you explain that?

I already addressed that by pointing out that Audrey Bell referred to the fragments in the singular as well.





Audrey Bell recalled that there were four fragments.

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The part I don't understand is whether this passage specifically relates to Connally's injuries or is it just a generalisation about tumbling bullets.

Apparently, you're no rocket scientist as well.

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Re: Q9
« Reply #42 on: April 25, 2023, 12:26:14 AM »


Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: Q9
« Reply #43 on: April 25, 2023, 05:35:29 PM »
Did you watch the Thompson video where he reports that Odum believed that he did handle CE 399 and that he showed it to Wright?

Thompson reports nothing of the sort. To say he does is baffling.
Just to clear an earlier point up first. I pointed out that Wright had categorically denied CE399 was the bullet he handled that day which you disagreed with. This is from the video you posted:

3:16 - "I started working in the direction I wanted to go. "You know that bullet you got from Tomlinson?", I asked, "The one you passed on to the Secret Service. What did it look like?" "Well, it was pointed", said Wright

5:03 - "...and then I showed him 399 - next slide please. There it is (picture of CE 399 is shown). "No, that's just like the others", Wright said, "I told you it was pointed."

5:54 - "So we left his office and we rejoined the others and a bit later we were all standing round together and Wright said, pointing to the photo of 399 - aloud, once again - that it didn't resemble the bullet that he'd gotten from Tomlinson."

Wright categorically denies CE 399 is the bullet he handled that day - twice!
He even gives Thompson a bullet similar to the one he did handle that day and Thompson later took a photo of it:



Wright handled a hunting slug with a pointed tip that day. He did not hand CE 399 to SA Johnsen.

As for Odum's recollection of showing CE 399 to Tomlinson and Wright:

17:30 - Odum interview by Aguilar over the phone.
"One of the documents says Bardwell Odum, to wit you, took this bullet around and showed it to a couple of people at Parkland Hospital."
Odum's reply was direct and electrifying, "I didn't show it to anyone at Parkland Hospital, I didn't have any bullet, I don't know where you got that but it's wrong. You're talking about the bullet they found at Parkland? I don't think I ever saw it even."

19:06 - Aguilar and Thompson meet Odum
"He continued to be adamant that he'd never seen it, he'd never had C1, or 399, in his hands, it had never been in his custody, and he had no recollection of visiting Parkland Hospital to interview O. P. Wright - who he knew because O. P. Wright was deputy chief - or Darrell Tomlinson."

Days later Odum contacts Thompson to tell him he does have a vague memory of visiting Wright but he can't recall what they spoke about and he still had no recollection of having CE 399 with him. He had zero recollection of meeting with Tomlinson.
At no point in the video does Thompson report that Odum recalled having CE399 or that he showed it to Wright. You have simply made that up.

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Are you aware that no FD-3O2 containing the info in the Airtel has ever been found? Someone within the FBI had to have shown Wright and Tomlinson the bullet. Right? Where is that FD-302? What did Johnsen and Rowley have to say about CE 399?  How do you know? The information in that Airtel does not conflict with the info on page 2 of WC Document 1258. In fact, the info in the AirTel obviously comes from the same source. If you maintain otherwise, then provide an FD-302 to back you up. Neither Wright not Tomlinson could positively identify CE 399 as the bullet that they handled. But they both said that it appeared to be the same one.

Nowhere in the AirTel does it say they thought CE 399 appeared to be the same bullet they handled that day. Both men refused to identify it as the bullet they handled, end of story.
You're argument that no 302 for the AirTel was found somehow explains why no 302 or interview notes were ever found for Odum's supposed interviews with Wright and Tomlinson is bizarre.

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I already addressed that by pointing out that Audrey Bell referred to the fragments in the singular as well.

Because Bell wrote "fragment" on a hospital memo, this explains why CE-842 was introduced as a single fragment??!!
Let's have a closer look at Frazier's testimony:

Mr. Specter: Was a fragment of metal brought to you which was identified as coming from the wrist of Governor Connally?

"a fragment" - a single fragment. One fragment

Mr. Frazier: It was identified to me as having come from the arm of Governor Connally.
Mr. Specter: Will you produce that fragment at this time, please?


"that fragment" - a single fragment. One fragment

Mr. Frazier: This one does not have a Commission number as yet.
Mr. Specter: May it please the Commission, I would like to have this fragment marked as Commission Exhibit 842.
(Commission Exhibit No. 842 was marked for identification and received in evidence.)


"this fragment" - a single fragment. One fragment

Mr. Specter: Now, referring to a fragment heretofore marked as Q9 for FBI record purposes, and now marked as Commission Exhibit No. 842, will you describe that fragment for us, please?

"a fragment" - a single fragment. One fragment.

Mr. Frazier: Yes, sir; this is a small fragment of metal which weighed one-half a grain when I first examined it in the laboratory. It is a piece of lead, and could have been a part of a bullet or a core of a bullet.

"a small fragment" - a single fragment. One fragment.
Frazier actually describes this single fragment. There is no mention, whatsoever, of the other three fragments that end up as part of CE 842. To suggest otherwise is untenable.
This is also supported by Frazier's original designation of Q9 as being a single fragment.
Yet, in the National Archives, CE 842 is four fragments.
You may think this is understandable but I do not

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Audrey Bell recalled that there were four fragments.

That is correct.
And Gregory's operative notes also suggest more than two fragments were removed from JBC's wrist.
And Gregory's WC testimony suggests at least two fragments were removed, if not more.

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Apparently, you're no rocket scientist as well.

Apparently not.
During the WC hearings it is stated by various doctors that the exit wound is usually the larger wound.
In the case of JBC's wrist this is not the case. Not only is the exit wound the smaller wound, the wound is actually smaller than the missile that was supposed to have produced it. All the more amazing as, according to some, the bullet was rotating as it passed through the wrist.
Gregory seemed surprised by this:

Mr. Specter: And is that characteristic in terms of entry and exit wounds?
Dr. GREGORY. It is not at all characteristic of the entry wound of a pristine missile which tends to make a small wound of entrance and larger wound of exit.


« Last Edit: April 25, 2023, 05:38:45 PM by Dan O'meara »

Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: Q9
« Reply #44 on: April 26, 2023, 03:12:58 AM »
Thompson reports nothing of the sort. To say he does is baffling.

It does so. If you had bothered to watch the video from where I timestamped it you would know that. Here it is again:


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Nowhere in the AirTel does it say they thought CE 399 appeared to be the same bullet they handled that day. Both men refused to identify it as the bullet they handled, end of story.
You're argument that no 302 for the AirTel was found somehow explains why no 302 or interview notes were ever found for Odum's supposed interviews with Wright and Tomlinson is bizarre.


I'm not the one who stated that an FD-302 was required for confirmation of information reported to be obtained by FBI interviews. So again, where is the FD-302 of the Agent(s) that showed the bullet to Wright and Tomlinson? If not Odum, then who?

The info contained in the Airtel does not conflict with the info in the WC document 1258. Stop being so damn thick-headed.

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Because Bell wrote "fragment" on a hospital memo, this explains why CE-842 was introduced as a single fragment??!!

Doesn't it? Explain why Bell wrote "fragment" on the transfer receipt.

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Let's have a closer look at Frazier's testimony:

No, let's not. Let's see your explanation for why Bell wrote "fragment" on the receipt first.

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That is correct.
And Gregory's operative notes also suggest more than two fragments were removed from JBC's wrist.
And Gregory's WC testimony suggests at least two fragments were removed, if not more.

Right. CE-842 is more than one fragment and always was.

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Apparently not.
During the WC hearings it is stated by various doctors that the exit wound is usually the larger wound.
In the case of JBC's wrist this is not the case. Not only is the exit wound the smaller wound, the wound is actually smaller than the missile that was supposed to have produced it. All the more amazing as, according to some, the bullet was rotating as it passed through the wrist.
Gregory seemed surprised by this:

Mr. Specter: And is that characteristic in terms of entry and exit wounds?
Dr. GREGORY. It is not at all characteristic of the entry wound of a pristine missile which tends to make a small wound of entrance and larger wound of exit.


Gregory actually gives two different dimensional descriptions of the exit wound.

Dr. GREGORY - The wound of exit was disposed transversely across the wrist exactly as I have it marked here. It was in the nature of a small laceration, perhaps a centimeter and a half in length, about a half an inch long,

It may be that the later "half centimeter in length" description was meant to be it's lesser diameter.

Gregory is telling you that the wounds were not made by a nose-forward bullet.

Dr. GREGORY - The wound of entrance is characteristic in my view of an irregular missile in this case, an irregular missile which has tipped itself off as being irregular by the nature of itself.
Mr. DULLES - What do you mean by irregular?
Dr. GREGORY - I mean one that has been distorted. It is in some way angular, it has edges or sharp edges or something of this sort. It is not rounded or pointed in the fashion of an ordinary missile. The irregularity of it also, I submit, tends to pick up organic material and carry it into the limb, and this is a very significant takeoff, in my opinion.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2023, 03:15:50 AM by Tim Nickerson »

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Re: Q9
« Reply #44 on: April 26, 2023, 03:12:58 AM »


Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: Q9
« Reply #45 on: April 26, 2023, 12:24:35 PM »
It does so. If you had bothered to watch the video from where I timestamped it you would know that. Here it is again:

"It does so"  :D :D :D
Oh no it doesn't!

I have clearly bothered to watch the video because, unlike you, not only did I provide the timestamp, I have gone to the trouble of providing a transcript of what was said.
Where have you timestamped it, by the way?
 
I note you have simply glided by the part of my post where you are proven wrong about Wright categorically denying CE 399 was the bullet he handled that day - twice!
I assume by your silence on that matter you accept now you were wrong but just can't bring yourself to admit that. But don't worry, I've got you covered.
As we shall see, once we accept Wright at his word, that the bullet he handed to SA Johnsen was not CE 399, a lot of troubling details about this particular aspect of the case, suddenly make sense.

But let's deal with the rest of your post first.

So, you are still insisting Thompson reported that Odum stated he had handled CE 399 and shown it to Wright. Even though I posted the following from transcript:

17:30 - Odum interview by Aguilar over the phone.
"One of the documents says Bardwell Odum, to wit you, took this bullet around and showed it to a couple of people at Parkland Hospital."
Odum's reply was direct and electrifying, "I didn't show it to anyone at Parkland Hospital, I didn't have any bullet, I don't know where you got that but it's wrong. You're talking about the bullet they found at Parkland? I don't think I ever saw it even."

19:06 - Aguilar and Thompson meet Odum
"He continued to be adamant that he'd never seen it, he'd never had C1, or 399, in his hands, it had never been in his custody, and he had no recollection of visiting Parkland Hospital to interview O. P. Wright - who he knew because O. P. Wright was deputy chief - or Darrell Tomlinson."


Rather than look for a timestamp you haven't provided, are you referring to this section of the video:

19:56 - "Two days later, he called me back and he said that, after thinking about it, he now had a vague recollection of sitting in Wright's basement office at Parkland, talking to Wright about some unknown, inconsequential matter. He still had no recollection of having the bullet in his possession or of showing it to anyone.
"But the more I thought about it", said Odum, "I did remember being in his office. The visit I had with Wright, I didn't consider it important, we didn't talk about it for more than a couple of minutes and I really can't remember what we talked about. But, from what you're saying, I might have had the bullet. That must have been what it was. I'm trying to pull it all together."

21:10 - "In the same phone call he remarked, "The Warren Commission would send down requests to do this or do that and we didn't question it, we did whatever they wanted. I can remember being in Wright's office for an unknown reason sometime well after the assassination and we talked a little about the assassination, I visited with him, I don't remember that I had the bullet with me but, assuming what you have is correct, it was undoubtedly sealed in a plastic envelope and I didn't open it. He didn't open it, nobody opened it, we were looking at it through a plastic envelope and that's my guess, and I just reported they couldn't identify it."

Odum's first statements are that he had never handled CE 399, that he had never even seen it, let alone shown it to Tomlinson and Wright.
Days later his story begins to change, but at no time does Odum say he can remember having CE 399 or that he showed it to Wright.
I can't imagine you are referring to any other part of the video but, if you are, please provide the timestamp in the form of minutes and seconds.
Otherwise we can assume you are also wrong about this but will try to just glide by it.

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I'm not the one who stated that an FD-302 was required for confirmation of information reported to be obtained by FBI interviews. So again, where is the FD-302 of the Agent(s) that showed the bullet to Wright and Tomlinson? If not Odum, then who?

I didn't state it was required for confirmation of information either. Nice Strawman though.
The point I'm making is that Odum denied he ever had CE 399 in his possession or that he had shown it to Wright and Tomlinson. Odum himself made the point that, if he had done so, there would be some kind of paper trail for it. Remember, this is an important issue, the WC had asked the FBI to provide chain of custody information for the key pieces of evidence in the case. If there had been the relevant paperwork, Odum's recollection would have been in error, but because the paperwork doesn't exist, it supports Odum's recollection of never having CE 399 in his possession. If the interviews had taken place it would have been very surprising that there was no paperwork for such an important issue.

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The info contained in the Airtel does not conflict with the info in the WC document 1258. Stop being so damn thick-headed.

The information contained in Dr Seuss' "The Cat in the Hat" also doesn't conflict with the info in doc. 1258.
So, what?
The AirTel makes no mention that the men thought CE 399 looked similar to the bullet they handled that day. They just refused to identify it as the bullet they discovered that day.
The important thing is that there is no mention of any similarity, so the conflict arises in what is not said as opposed to what is said.
Why would the AirTel fail to mention that Tomlinson and Wright had said there was a similarity between CE 399 and the bullet they handled that day? What ridiculous explanation can you invent to cover this uncomfortable fact.
Common Sense dictates that the reason it wasn't mentioned in the AirTel was because neither man mentioned a similarity. Because there was no similarity. Because they were two completely different bullets.

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Doesn't it? Explain why Bell wrote "fragment" on the transfer receipt.

You asked this question already.
You know you have.
You also know I said "I don't know" why Bell wrote "fragments" on the envelope and "fragment" on the hospital memo.
Why would you ask a question I've already answered?

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No, let's not. Let's see your explanation for why Bell wrote "fragment" on the receipt first.

 :D :D :D
You think you're going to slip out of this that easily!!
As you already know, I've answered this point - I don't have a clue why Bell wrote different things.
Now, back to my question:


Mr. Specter: Was a fragment of metal brought to you which was identified as coming from the wrist of Governor Connally?

"a fragment" - a single fragment. One fragment

Mr. Frazier: It was identified to me as having come from the arm of Governor Connally.
Mr. Specter: Will you produce that fragment at this time, please?


"that fragment" - a single fragment. One fragment

Mr. Frazier: This one does not have a Commission number as yet.
Mr. Specter: May it please the Commission, I would like to have this fragment marked as Commission Exhibit 842.
(Commission Exhibit No. 842 was marked for identification and received in evidence.)


"this fragment" - a single fragment. One fragment

Mr. Specter: Now, referring to a fragment heretofore marked as Q9 for FBI record purposes, and now marked as Commission Exhibit No. 842, will you describe that fragment for us, please?

"a fragment" - a single fragment. One fragment.

Mr. Frazier: Yes, sir; this is a small fragment of metal which weighed one-half a grain when I first examined it in the laboratory. It is a piece of lead, and could have been a part of a bullet or a core of a bullet.

"a small fragment" - a single fragment. One fragment.

WHY IS CE 842 ENTERED INTO EVIDENCE AS A SINGLE FRAGMENT?

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Right. CE-842 is more than one fragment and always was.

Apart from in the initial FBI report
And on the hospital memo
And when it was labeled by Frazier
And when it was entered into evidence

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Gregory actually gives two different dimensional descriptions of the exit wound.

Dr. GREGORY - The wound of exit was disposed transversely across the wrist exactly as I have it marked here. It was in the nature of a small laceration, perhaps a centimeter and a half in length, about a half an inch long,

It may be that the later "half centimeter in length" description was meant to be it's lesser diameter.

This would make a lot more sense, even though various doctors, including Gregory, are surprised the exit wound is the smaller of the two wounds

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Gregory is telling you that the wounds were not made by a nose-forward bullet.

Dr. GREGORY - The wound of entrance is characteristic in my view of an irregular missile in this case, an irregular missile which has tipped itself off as being irregular by the nature of itself.
Mr. DULLES - What do you mean by irregular?
Dr. GREGORY - I mean one that has been distorted. It is in some way angular, it has edges or sharp edges or something of this sort. It is not rounded or pointed in the fashion of an ordinary missile. The irregularity of it also, I submit, tends to pick up organic material and carry it into the limb, and this is a very significant takeoff, in my opinion.


Gregory is telling me a fragment of a bullet passed through Connally's wrist
« Last Edit: April 26, 2023, 12:25:17 PM by Dan O'meara »

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Q9
« Reply #46 on: April 26, 2023, 05:52:21 PM »
It does so. If you had bothered to watch the video from where I timestamped it you would know that. Here it is again:



I'm not the one who stated that an FD-302 was required for confirmation of information reported to be obtained by FBI interviews. So again, where is the FD-302 of the Agent(s) that showed the bullet to Wright and Tomlinson? If not Odum, then who?

The info contained in the Airtel does not conflict with the info in the WC document 1258. Stop being so damn thick-headed.

Doesn't it? Explain why Bell wrote "fragment" on the transfer receipt.

No, let's not. Let's see your explanation for why Bell wrote "fragment" on the receipt first.

Right. CE-842 is more than one fragment and always was.

Gregory actually gives two different dimensional descriptions of the exit wound.

Dr. GREGORY - The wound of exit was disposed transversely across the wrist exactly as I have it marked here. It was in the nature of a small laceration, perhaps a centimeter and a half in length, about a half an inch long,

It may be that the later "half centimeter in length" description was meant to be it's lesser diameter.

Gregory is telling you that the wounds were not made by a nose-forward bullet.

Dr. GREGORY - The wound of entrance is characteristic in my view of an irregular missile in this case, an irregular missile which has tipped itself off as being irregular by the nature of itself.
Mr. DULLES - What do you mean by irregular?
Dr. GREGORY - I mean one that has been distorted. It is in some way angular, it has edges or sharp edges or something of this sort. It is not rounded or pointed in the fashion of an ordinary missile. The irregularity of it also, I submit, tends to pick up organic material and carry it into the limb, and this is a very significant takeoff, in my opinion.


So again, where is the FD-302 of the Agent(s) that showed the bullet to Wright and Tomlinson? If not Odum, then who?

What makes you think that any other agent showed CE399 to Wright and Tomlinson?

A far more likely scenario is that Shanklin just simply wrote in his airtel (which btw doesn't mention Odum at all) that Tomlinson and Wright could not identify CE399. I believe he wrote that simply because he (Shanklin) knew that the bullet now in evidence as CE399 was not the same bullet as the one he, himself, had shown to Tomlinson about a week after the assassination. Tomlinson is on record twice saying that this happened. It would be pointless for Shanklin to send anybody to Tomlinson and Wright to show CE399, knowing that it was a substitute and risk that either man would deny that it was the same bullet! I was much easier for Shanklin to just write in the airtel (which was secret internal communication) that both men could not identify the bullet. It's a kinda sneaky way to deal with the matter, because Shanklin knew that to actually be true. I believe that this is also the reason why the airtel doesn't identify the person who showed the bullet to Tomlinson and Wright.

The info contained in the Airtel does not conflict with the info in the WC document 1258. Stop being so damn thick-headed.

Of course it conflicts! Stop being so damn thick-headed and utterly dishonest!

Where in the airtel is Odum's name mentioned? And where does it say in the airtel that, according to Tomlinson and/or Wright, C1 "looks like the slug found at Parkland Hospital"?

« Last Edit: April 26, 2023, 07:05:41 PM by Martin Weidmann »

Offline John Tonkovich

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Re: Q9
« Reply #47 on: May 11, 2023, 05:02:04 AM »
This is discussed at length in martin's thread, "A Time to Receive and Give (CE399)

CE399 was not the bullet that impacted JBC's wrist. So the imperative, to have a whole bullet pass through the wrist, disappears, and certain things begin to make a bit more sense (to me, at least)

The pre-op X-ray of JBC's wrist shows there is no "channel" through the bone, the bullet impacted the side of the radius and, in order for it to exit through the crease in the wrist, would have to pass directly through one of the densest bones in the body. There is no hint of this happening in the X-ray.
If the bullet fragmented on contact with the wrist, I could see how a smaller part of it might get through to exit through the crease in the wrist. The remainder of the bullet would, most probably, end up on the limo floor.

Multiple fragments are discovered throughout the wound. I can easily see how this might happen in the case of fragmentation but I have great difficulty understanding how this could be the case if CE399 were the bullet involved.
The problem with CE399 is that the only place lead fragments could come from is the base of the bullet. They can't come from anywhere else on the bullet. It was quickly realised that, in order to be able to explain how CE399 could leave metal fragments in the wound, it must have entered the wound base first. This was not based on evidence relating to the wound itself - the size, shape or disposition of the wound - it was simply an invention of necessity. In turn this led to the idea of a "tumbling bullet", which is something I have great difficulty envisaging.
Was the bullet tumbling through JBC's chest? I don't know.
The impression I get is that, "officially", the bullet entered and exited JBC's torso nose-first and when it exited his chest it began rotating at an unbelievably high speed, so that it hit the wrist base-first. The problem with this is that the bullet would still have been rotating at an incredibly high speed as it traveled through the wrist.
The X-ray of JBC's wrist doesn't show a hole where a bullet might have traveled directly through without rotating, let alone a rotating bullet, which would surely have blown his hand off!

Which brings us to the exit wound, a one centimeter long slit!!
This rotating bullet, smashing through the radius, scattering metallic fragments as it goes, leaves a one centimeter long slit as it exits.
I simply don't buy that.

"...the hole may not be apparent in that X-Ray, it is there."

Hmmm...
This is a bit like you're contention that, although there are multiple fragments that don't show up on JBC's pre-op X-ray, they are still there.
You can't see it , but it's there! What sort of argument is that?
It just leads to a 'pantomime' argument - "Oh yes it is", "Oh no it isn't".

Do you imagine the bullet was rotating as it passed through the wrist, or that it passed through base-first all the way?

Assuming it's Bell's writing on both items - on one she describes a fragment (singular), on the other she describes fragments (plural).
Why?
I literally don't have a clue.

You can deny what is seen in my "heavily pixelated picture" all you want

Thanks, I will.  Thumb1:

but you cannot honestly deny that CE-842 is made up of four fragments.

Where have I denied that the picture in the National Archives depicts four fragments?
Gregory testifies to removing two fragments.
The X-rays prove he removed two fragments.
Frazier only recorded a single fragment from JBC's arm. Even though the envelope he received them in stated "fragments" plural.
The original FBI report states that a single fragment was removed.
The hospital memo states one fragment was handed over to Nolan (who thought the fragment came from JBC's thigh!)

Do you think you can unravel all this with a dodgy, heavily pixelated pic?
You are getting very close.

CE399 did enter " base first".

How? And why, would a bullet enter " base first"?
Not the normal trajectory of a bullet.
What caused that?

And whom did it enter?

The answer is easy.

Happy hunting!


JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Q9
« Reply #47 on: May 11, 2023, 05:02:04 AM »