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Author Topic: Is the amount of effort to link Oswald to Hidell believable?  (Read 11435 times)

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Is the amount of effort to link Oswald to Hidell believable?
« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2023, 11:56:06 PM »
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Listen closely Martin, the most important evidence that I present here was presented to a Jury of our peers and they convicted Oswald, and the "claim" that it wasn't Oswald was soundly rejected.

JohnM

the most important evidence that I present here was presented to a Jury of our peers

If you say so. In just about the most compressed manner possible they selected parts of the evidence they considered important. No discovery, no appeal possible, just a handful of witnesses and many subjects completely ignored or just assumed to be fact.

In a real murder trial witnesses can be on the stand for several days. Here only for a couple of minutes with only superficial follow up questions being asked.

Btw, the mere fact that this jury agreed with you on Oswald's guilt, doesn't mean that opinion is correct? It is nothing more than another appeal to authority.


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Re: Is the amount of effort to link Oswald to Hidell believable?
« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2023, 11:56:06 PM »


Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Is the amount of effort to link Oswald to Hidell believable?
« Reply #41 on: June 27, 2023, 12:12:01 AM »
Talk about delusions of Grandeur, you seem to get off in your fantasy about being Oswald's defence lawyer, but this isn't court, it's just a discussion Forum.
At times we can use the evidence court standards but let me repeat, this isn't court, it's just a discussion Forum! LOLOLOLOL!

JohnM

And therefore you just happened to use a mock-trial to "support" your claims? .....

But what are you really saying here? Is it that the burden of proof doesn't exist on this forum? If so, then why are you constantly asking for proof from other members? Or is it that you feel the burden of proof doesn't apply to you but it does apply to other members?

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Is the amount of effort to link Oswald to Hidell believable?
« Reply #42 on: June 27, 2023, 12:27:03 AM »
Pity they didn’t include or mention the partial palmprint lift that Day supposedly had that night.

Is this receipt in the extant evidence. I ask since Hosty apparently got the details of the FPCC letters wrong.

But he doesn’t actually say that the “16 cards and pictures” were all inside the billfold — at that time or ever. Not that he would have any firsthand knowledge either way.


Is this receipt in the extant evidence.

I don’t know. I am just reporting what Hosty wrote in his book. If I remember correctly, he states that he took notes when these things were happening. And that he used them to help him with his book.


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Re: Is the amount of effort to link Oswald to Hidell believable?
« Reply #42 on: June 27, 2023, 12:27:03 AM »


Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Is the amount of effort to link Oswald to Hidell believable?
« Reply #43 on: June 27, 2023, 12:43:16 AM »


a) there is nothing in this video that discusses Oswald’s alleged use of the Hidell alias or any evidence that Oswald was carrying an ID card at the time of his arrest.

b) Shaneyfelt gave no WC testimony whatsoever about handwriting. He testified about photographs. By the way, that’s the same Shaneyfelt who said the rifle in the backyard photos is not identifiable. It’s not at all clear when he examined these things for the show trial or exactly what he examined.

But again, nice try.

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Is the amount of effort to link Oswald to Hidell believable?
« Reply #44 on: June 27, 2023, 12:49:02 AM »
Talk about delusions of Grandeur, you seem to get off in your fantasy about being Oswald's defence lawyer, but this isn't court, it's just a discussion Forum.
At times we can use the evidence court standards but let me repeat, this isn't court, it's just a discussion Forum! LOLOLOLOL!

I agree. Which makes your appeal to Bugliosi’s show trial especially laughable.

By the way, you seem to get off of your hero worship of Bugliosi.

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Re: Is the amount of effort to link Oswald to Hidell believable?
« Reply #44 on: June 27, 2023, 12:49:02 AM »


Online Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: Is the amount of effort to link Oswald to Hidell believable?
« Reply #45 on: June 27, 2023, 03:34:16 PM »
Thanks again Steve. These links are better copies and easier on my tired old eyes. I went back to Hosty’s book “Assignment Oswald” and have found the proper context for the previous quote from that book. Here is another snip that indicates that Hosty and DeBrueys were looking through evidence collected by the Dallas Police. And that this was just a few days after the assassination. So it appears to me that this letter was in LHO’s personal papers. Perhaps it was never sent to the FPCC or was lost or misplaced? Anyway, it sure seems to me that if the authorities had this letter, it should have been presented to the WC as evidence. Here is the snip (from page 100):

An officer showed DeBrueys and me to Lieutenant Potts’s office, which was next to Captain Fritz’s. Stacked in Potts’s office was all the evidence. Two of our FBI agents, Ural Horton and Ron Brinkley, were already there reviewing it, and it looked as if they had been there for some time. When we told them we had been assigned to relieve them, Horton and Brinkley gave sighs of relief. They were criminal agents, with no expertise in counter-intelligence work, and were having a hell of a time making heads or tails of any of the evidence. They quickly grabbed their suit coats, bid us adios and good luck, and left. DeBrueys and I surveyed the room. The evidence seemed to consist mostly of the personal papers of Lee and Marina Oswald. Nothing was organized; in fact, things were a mess. DeBrueys and I looked at each other, not knowing whether to laugh or cry. We decided it was best to divide the room in half and begin what was clearly going to be a tedious job.
Charles: Yes, I read that Hosty account and that's probably what they were reading. I don't think the FBI at that early stage would have had the letters (or copies) he sent to the FPCC. The FPCC gave those original letters to the FBI later and that's how they got them (story here: https://tinyurl.com/y9ktvrbv). Did the FBI intercept them and make copies? But that doesn't seem to be what Hosty and DeBrueys are looking at.

So they were looking at a draft or notes, some letter/writings that he didn't send. But what happened to them? Or Hosty has his account all wrong/mixed up with something else.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2023, 03:46:34 PM by Steve M. Galbraith »

Offline Zeon Mason

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Re: Is the amount of effort to link Oswald to Hidell believable?
« Reply #46 on: June 29, 2023, 02:20:32 AM »
It’s the lack of fingerprints that imo, seems to defy probability.

Examples:

1. The 35”  length paper bag that is presented as evidence of Oswald having made such bag using paper and tape from the TSBD, and then having carried the 40” MC rifle (disassembled).
If Oswald carried the bag as described by BW Frazier and his sister Linnie May Randle, then there should be a palm print at the BOTTOM of the bag and another palm and fingers print at the TOP of the bag. This because of the pressure that would be exerted on the bag to hold the 8 lb rifle by the barrel with just one hand gripping at the top and the weight of 8lbs of rifle being compressed into the palm of just one hand at the bottom.

2. The bus transfer ticket handled by Mcwatters and then handled by Oswald multiple times having removed it from one shirt pocket to another shirt he changed into ( a curiosity in Itself as the ticket had expired by 1:00pm) . Then such ticket having been removed by some DPD from the pocket of the shirt?
No fingerprints of ANYONE on the ticket?

3. The MC rifle found at 1:22 pm on the 6th floor TSBD had no fingerprints and the Lt.Day “palm print” is dubious because of lack of verification by FBI examining the rifle and FBI agent Drain denying ever having been informed a print existed when he took possession of the rifle from Lt. Day.

4. There were no fingerprints from Walleys taxi cab apparently from Oswald.

5. There were no fingerprints of Oswald on the side of Tippets police car, where Markam described Oswald leaning and placing his hands on the car.

6. Apparently no prints left by Oswald at Brewers store entrance door.

7. Apparently no prints of Oswald found on the entrance door of the Texas theater.

8. None of the shells tossed by the Tippet shooter had Oswald’s prints or any others prints

9. None of the shells at the 6th floor SN window had Oswald’s prints .
9.b - The clip had no prints either

10. No prints of Oswald taken from his boarding room entrance door or his bedroom.

11. No prints of Oswald found on any coke bottle nor on a Dr. Pepper bottle or on a paper bag with chicken remains found  on the 6th floor.
12. No signs of any Oswald footprints on the floor or on the staircases along the entire trek of “The Escape” from 6th floor SN window to 2nd floor lunchroom.
No handprints on the hand rails (apparently Oswald able to fly down the staircase skipping 2-3 steps at a time without need to balance himself using hand rails).

13. No fingerprints from the coke machine 2nd floor lunchroom matched to Oswald.

14. No fingerprints of Oswald on the swinging doors of the vestibule door or the lunchroom door.

14b. No fingerprints of Oswald on the rear door to the 2nd floor office nor on the front door he supposedly exited ( seen allegedly by Mrs Reid)

15. The spy camera and the camera supposedly used by Marina to photo Oswald =no prints of Oswald or Marina apparently found)

16. The SN window had to have been lowered to the 15.5 “ height from having been fully half open earlier at approx 12:15 (as per Arnold Rowlands observing a black man “leaning out” that window 12:15) . No fingerprints of Oswald found on the window?

Conclusion? It just seems like more fingerprints ( and at least a couple of footprints) should been found and in some cases such as the paperbag, a LOT more prints given how many times that bag must have been touched by Oswald’s bare hand just in taking it to BW Fraziers car then lifting it out and then carrying it, let alone the process of constructing  the bag with tape.

Offline John Mytton

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Re: Is the amount of effort to link Oswald to Hidell believable?
« Reply #47 on: June 30, 2023, 08:27:56 AM »
It’s the lack of fingerprints that imo, seems to defy probability.

Examples:

1. The 35”  length paper bag that is presented as evidence of Oswald having made such bag using paper and tape from the TSBD, and then having carried the 40” MC rifle (disassembled).
If Oswald carried the bag as described by BW Frazier and his sister Linnie May Randle, then there should be a palm print at the BOTTOM of the bag and another palm and fingers print at the TOP of the bag. This because of the pressure that would be exerted on the bag to hold the 8 lb rifle by the barrel with just one hand gripping at the top and the weight of 8lbs of rifle being compressed into the palm of just one hand at the bottom.

2. The bus transfer ticket handled by Mcwatters and then handled by Oswald multiple times having removed it from one shirt pocket to another shirt he changed into ( a curiosity in Itself as the ticket had expired by 1:00pm) . Then such ticket having been removed by some DPD from the pocket of the shirt?
No fingerprints of ANYONE on the ticket?

3. The MC rifle found at 1:22 pm on the 6th floor TSBD had no fingerprints and the Lt.Day “palm print” is dubious because of lack of verification by FBI examining the rifle and FBI agent Drain denying ever having been informed a print existed when he took possession of the rifle from Lt. Day.

4. There were no fingerprints from Walleys taxi cab apparently from Oswald.

5. There were no fingerprints of Oswald on the side of Tippets police car, where Markam described Oswald leaning and placing his hands on the car.

6. Apparently no prints left by Oswald at Brewers store entrance door.

7. Apparently no prints of Oswald found on the entrance door of the Texas theater.

8. None of the shells tossed by the Tippet shooter had Oswald’s prints or any others prints

9. None of the shells at the 6th floor SN window had Oswald’s prints .
9.b - The clip had no prints either

10. No prints of Oswald taken from his boarding room entrance door or his bedroom.

11. No prints of Oswald found on any coke bottle nor on a Dr. Pepper bottle or on a paper bag with chicken remains found  on the 6th floor.
12. No signs of any Oswald footprints on the floor or on the staircases along the entire trek of “The Escape” from 6th floor SN window to 2nd floor lunchroom.
No handprints on the hand rails (apparently Oswald able to fly down the staircase skipping 2-3 steps at a time without need to balance himself using hand rails).

13. No fingerprints from the coke machine 2nd floor lunchroom matched to Oswald.

14. No fingerprints of Oswald on the swinging doors of the vestibule door or the lunchroom door.

14b. No fingerprints of Oswald on the rear door to the 2nd floor office nor on the front door he supposedly exited ( seen allegedly by Mrs Reid)

15. The spy camera and the camera supposedly used by Marina to photo Oswald =no prints of Oswald or Marina apparently found)

16. The SN window had to have been lowered to the 15.5 “ height from having been fully half open earlier at approx 12:15 (as per Arnold Rowlands observing a black man “leaning out” that window 12:15) . No fingerprints of Oswald found on the window?

Conclusion? It just seems like more fingerprints ( and at least a couple of footprints) should been found and in some cases such as the paperbag, a LOT more prints given how many times that bag must have been touched by Oswald’s bare hand just in taking it to BW Fraziers car then lifting it out and then carrying it, let alone the process of constructing  the bag with tape.

As seen in the following photo, some items can be handled but only leave a solitary readable print.



Other items like Oswald's rifle trigger guard had three prints which were consistent but initially not enough to make the required points for a match but luckily multiple photos were found later and were taken at different exposures and Vincent Scalice made a positive identification.


A lot of your examples were not necessary. And also consider smudging and simply not enough points for a positive Identification.

1. The 35”  length paper bag that is presented as evidence of Oswald having made such bag using paper and tape from the TSBD, and then having carried the 40” MC rifle (disassembled).
If Oswald carried the bag as described by BW Frazier and his sister Linnie May Randle, then there should be a palm print at the BOTTOM of the bag and another palm and fingers print at the TOP of the bag. This because of the pressure that would be exerted on the bag to hold the 8 lb rifle by the barrel with just one hand gripping at the top and the weight of 8lbs of rifle being compressed into the palm of just one hand at the bottom.

The FBI needed to use silver nitrate to remove any legible prints.

2. The bus transfer ticket handled by Mcwatters and then handled by Oswald multiple times having removed it from one shirt pocket to another shirt he changed into ( a curiosity in Itself as the ticket had expired by 1:00pm) . Then such ticket having been removed by some DPD from the pocket of the shirt?
No fingerprints of ANYONE on the ticket?

Again it's paper and Oswald admitted to catching a bus, the transfer was found on Oswald and McWatters punch proves it came from him.

3. The MC rifle found at 1:22 pm on the 6th floor TSBD had no fingerprints and the Lt.Day “palm print” is dubious because of lack of verification by FBI examining the rifle and FBI agent Drain denying ever having been informed a print existed when he took possession of the rifle from Lt. Day.

See above.

4. There were no fingerprints from Walleys taxi cab apparently from Oswald.

Whaley positively ID'd Oswald and Oswald admitted catching a cab.

5. There were no fingerprints of Oswald on the side of Tippets police car, where Markam described Oswald leaning and placing his hands on the car.

They tried but the prints found were someone else, the DP could have planted prints and it would be a slam dunk but they were too honest.

6. Apparently no prints left by Oswald at Brewers store entrance door.

Oswald was found just up the road, and what would it prove?

7. Apparently no prints of Oswald found on the entrance door of the Texas theater.

He was found in the Theatre??

8. None of the shells tossed by the Tippet Tippit shooter had Oswald’s prints or any others prints

Do you think a positive ID could come from such a small area?

9. None of the shells at the 6th floor SN window had Oswald’s prints .
9.b - The clip had no prints either

iirc Expended shells don't have prints. The clip could be a possibility?

10. No prints of Oswald taken from his boarding room entrance door or his bedroom.

He was confirmed to live there.

11. No prints of Oswald found on any coke bottle nor on a Dr. Pepper bottle or on a paper bag with chicken remains found  on the 6th floor.

Where did Oswald leave his coke bottle. Was that Oswald's lunch?

12. No signs of any Oswald footprints on the floor or on the staircases along the entire trek of “The Escape” from 6th floor SN window to 2nd floor lunchroom.
No handprints on the hand rails (apparently Oswald able to fly down the staircase skipping 2-3 steps at a time without need to balance himself using hand rails).

They were high traffic areas and unlike the fresh prints in the snipers nest, what would they prove?

13. No fingerprints from the coke machine 2nd floor lunchroom matched to Oswald.

Oswald was observed holding a coke bottle.

14. No fingerprints of Oswald on the swinging doors of the vestibule door or the lunchroom door.

Oswald was seen in the lunchroom.

14b. No fingerprints of Oswald on the rear door to the 2nd floor office nor on the front door he supposedly exited ( seen allegedly by Mrs Reid)

Mrs Reid saw Oswald pass through this area

15. The spy camera and the camera supposedly used by Marina to photo Oswald =no prints of Oswald or Marina apparently found)

What photos were taken with the spy camera?

16. The SN window had to have been lowered to the 15.5 “ height from having been fully half open earlier at approx 12:15 (as per Arnold Rowlands observing a black man “leaning out” that window 12:15) . No fingerprints of Oswald found on the window?

There were multiple fresh prints found in the sniper's nest.

"Mr. EISENBERG. I am not sure I understand your reference to a minimum of 24 hours.
Mr. LATONA. We have conducted tests with various types of materials as to how long it could be before we would not develop a latent print.
Mr. EISENBERG. Yes?
Mr. LATONA. Assuming that the same print was left on an object or a series of similar prints were left on an object, and powdering them, say, at intervals of every 4 hours or so, we would fail to develop a latent print of that particular type on that particular surface, say, within a 24-hour period.
Mr. EISENBERG. So that is a maximum of 24 hours?
Mr. LATONA. That is right.
Mr. EISENBERG. You would not care, you say, though----
Mr. LATONA. No.
Mr. EISENBERG. To employ that here, but your experiments produced a maximum time of 24 hours.
Mr. LATONA. Bear that out; yes. Like I say, undoubtedly this print was left on there----between the time that the print was left and the time that it was powdered could not have been too long a time. Otherwise, the print would not have developed with the clarity that it did.
Mr. EISENBERG. You identified that, I believe, as the right palmprint of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. LATONA. That is right."


JohnM

« Last Edit: June 30, 2023, 09:45:00 AM by John Mytton »

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Re: Is the amount of effort to link Oswald to Hidell believable?
« Reply #47 on: June 30, 2023, 08:27:56 AM »