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Author Topic: The Walker Case  (Read 29659 times)

Offline Jon Banks

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Re: The Walker Case
« Reply #160 on: July 11, 2023, 02:31:10 AM »
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There is no proof that Oswald wrote the letter?  It was found among his possessions.

In December 1963 after Oswald was dead for a few days, Ruth Paine, not the police, turned over a book with the note in it. The police didn't find note the first time they searched Paine's home when Lee was still alive.

So for all we know:

- the note could've been written by someone else and planted in the book after Oswald was killed.

or

- the note could've been written by Lee Oswald but the context had nothing to do with the Walker shooting.

Either way, it's circumstantial evidence at best, not direct evidence linking him to the crime, if Oswald did in fact write the note.


  His own wife confirms that he left it for her.  She also confirms that he confessed to trying to shoot Walker.  I'm not exactly sure why that is not evidence.

Marina was not a reliable witness and you can't convict someone based on the testimony of a witness who didn't see the suspect commit the crime even if the witness claims the suspect confessed to the crime. More evidence than that is needed in normal circumstances.

Both the Warren Commission and the HSCA noted her inconsistencies and bad memory. For all we know she could've been mistaken or at worst, lied.

What's the explanation for her implausible story about stopping Lee from killing Richard Nixon?
« Last Edit: July 11, 2023, 03:20:00 AM by Jon Banks »

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Re: The Walker Case
« Reply #160 on: July 11, 2023, 02:31:10 AM »


Offline Jon Banks

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Re: The Walker Case
« Reply #161 on: July 11, 2023, 02:40:02 AM »
Hi Charles, trying to be reasonable with unreasonable people is futile.

Expecting people to support their speculation with evidence is unreasonable?

Isn't that the standard you apply to CT'ers?

The conspiracy theorists or those who absurdly claim "show me where I said I was a conspiracy theorist" go all out to defend a person who defected to the enemy at the height of the Cold War and when rejected, hacked into his own wrist which caused massive blood loss and required stitches to repair, the same guy who in a letter to his brother Robert said he was willing to KILL any American, ANY American, the same guy who while in the marines shot himself in the elbow. He also hit his wife!

They want more evidence for this Walker assassination attempt but these same people claim Oswald is innocent of killing Tippit even though Oswald was positively identified either at the scene or moving away while fiddling with his gun?? There will never be enough evidence for the Hardcore conspiracy theorist.

Poor poor Oswald was surrounded by evidence linking him to three of the most infamous events in Dallas in 1963, like being in the building where Kennedy was shot, his fresh prints in the snipers nest, Oswald's rifle with Oswald's prints on the same floor, flight from the scene of the crime. Being positively identified at the Tippit crime scene, leaving exclusively matching shells to his revolver at the Tippit crime scene, being arrested with the same revolver and trying to kill more Police with the same revolver. Then just after Oswald purchased and received Oswald's rifle and was photographed with Oswald's rifle and just after Oswald wrote a note telling Marina what to do after Oswald committed a crime which could have Oswald himself killed and just after Oswald's camera took surveillance photos of Walkers house and possessing a map with Walkers house marked with a cross, then to top it off Oswald admitted to attempting to kill General Walker!!!

There couldn't possibly be any more incriminating evidence for each of these three vile disgusting acts but the afore mentioned conspiracy theorist's with a shrug of their shoulders say it couldn't possibly be Oswald because you know, reasons!

JohnM


For all we know, Oswald may have did it. Unlike the Kennedy assassination, I believe Oswald had a motive for shooting at Walker. There's just not nearly enough evidence to conclude that he did it. Most of the LN'ers are working backwards and applying confirmation bias to this incident. You're refusing to acknowledge the lack of evidence.

There's far less evidence in the Walker shooting than the JFK or Tippit crime scenes.

No spent bullet casings. No fingerprints. No eyewitnesses placing Oswald near the crime scene. No explanation of how he got to Walker's home with his rifle and back without being seen by anyone.

If you're a prosecutor attempting to build a case against Oswald for the Walker shooting, what hard evidence connects him to the crime scene?

Does Oswald even need an alibi if you can't place him at the scene of the crime?
« Last Edit: July 11, 2023, 02:41:59 AM by Jon Banks »

Offline John Mytton

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Re: The Walker Case
« Reply #162 on: July 11, 2023, 03:30:11 AM »
In December 1963 after Oswald was dead for a few days, Ruth Paine, not the police, turned over a book with the note in it. The police didn't find note the first time they searched Paine's home when Lee was still alive.

So for all we know:

- the note could've been written by someone else and planted in the book after Oswald was killed.

or

- the note could've been written by Lee Oswald but the context had nothing to do with the Walker shooting.

Either way, it's circumstantial evidence at best, not direct evidence linking him to the crime, if Oswald did in fact write the letter.


Marina was not a reliable witness and you can't convict someone based on the testimony of a witness who didn't see the suspect commit the crime even if the witness claims the suspect confessed to the crime. More evidence than that is needed in normal circumstances.

Both the Warren Commission and the HSCA noted her inconsistencies and bad memory. For all we know she could've been mistaken or at worst, lied.

What's the explanation for her implausible story about stopping Lee from killing Richard Nixon?

Quote
- the note could've been written by someone else and planted in the book after Oswald was killed.

Didn't you point out that there was no date or Walkers name on the Walker note, if a third party was going to plant incriminating evidence, wouldn't they at least add those two facts?

Quote
- the note could've been written by Lee Oswald but the context had nothing to do with the Walker shooting.

I've asked and received no response but what other event happened in which Oswald had incriminating photos of?,  and in the Walker note Oswald made reference to paying the rent on the 2nd, the same date Oswald paid the March rent and it was established that the April rent was paid on the 2nd or 3rd for Neely street, you know the location of the backyard photos with Oswald holding Oswald's rifle which was purchased in mid March? And what other event could have Oswald arrested or perhaps even killed? It's also worth noting that all this preparation was just before the Walker assassination attempt on the Tenth of April.

Quote
Marina was not a reliable witness and you can't convict someone based on the testimony of a witness who didn't see the suspect commit the crime even if the witness claims the suspect confessed to the crime. More evidence than that is needed in normal circumstances.

Both the Warren Commission and the HSCA noted her inconsistencies and bad memory. For all we know she could've been mistaken or at worst, lied.


Marina gave specific details which she couldn't just make up, like the church having a meeting on the Wednesday as confirmed by the church itself! And as a matter of fact, how the heck did Marina even know a Church was nearby?

Mr. RANKIN. Did he explain to you about his being able to use a bus just as well as other people could use a car---something of that kind?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. Simply as a passenger. He told me that even before that time he had gone also to shoot, but he had returned. I don't know why. Because on the day that he did fire, there was a church across the street and there were many people there, and it was easier to merge in the crowd and not be noticed.


JohnM
« Last Edit: July 11, 2023, 04:26:32 AM by John Mytton »

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Re: The Walker Case
« Reply #162 on: July 11, 2023, 03:30:11 AM »


Offline Zeon Mason

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Re: The Walker Case
« Reply #163 on: July 11, 2023, 04:21:27 AM »
This methodical Oswald apparently was not able to aim well enough to hit a stationary Walker.

Oswald apparently was not methodical enough to figure out when Walker might be OUTSIDE and be an easy target. Oswald chose instead to align his scope reticle right on the intersection of window frame virtually assuring the bullet would likely be deflected.

It’s almost like somebody else was there with Oswald and it was Oswald’s debut moment to prove he really was serious to this person, but he was nervous and aimed poorly possibly on purpose so he would not actually hit Walker.

This “somebody else” could have been another personality of Oswald , in the same way as in the movie Flight Club”

Offline Jon Banks

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Re: The Walker Case
« Reply #164 on: July 11, 2023, 04:28:52 AM »
Didn't you point out that there was no date or Walkers name on the Walker note, if a third party was going to plant incriminating evidence, wouldn't they at least add those two facts?

I said it could have been planted. The fact is, the police didn't find the letter when they searched the Paine home on 11/22/63. It wasn't found til a few days later with the help of Ruth Paine.

Even if Oswald did write the note, the lack of a date or mention of Walker makes it useless as evidence.

Also worth mentioning that neither Lee nor Marina's fingerprints were found on the note.

I'm not arguing that Oswald 'couldn't have done it'. I'm clarifying that the evidence linking Oswald to the Walker shooting is very weak.

There's a difference between saying 'he couldn't have done it' versus my saying 'there's not enough evidence to conclude that he did it'.


Marina gave specific details which she couldn't just make up, like the church having a meeting on the Wednesday as confirmed by the church itself! And as a matter of fact, how the heck did Marina even know a Church was nearby?

Mr. RANKIN. Did he explain to you about his being able to use a bus just as well as other people could use a car---something of that kind?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. Simply as a passenger. He told me that even before that time he had gone also to shoot, but he had returned. I don't know why. Because on the day that he did fire, there was a church across the street and there were many people there, and it was easier to merge in the crowd and not be noticed.


JohnM

The story that you describe makes it even more incredible that no one saw Oswald anywhere near Walker's home on the night of the shooting.

The only witness described suspects who didn't fit Oswald's description:

The best witness to the Walker shooting incident was fourteen-year-old, Walter Kirk Coleman. He lived on Newton, which was just north of Walker’s house and overlooked the Mormon Church and parking lot.

On the evening of 10th April 1963, he was at home standing in the doorway which led from his bedroom to the outside of the house. He heard a loud noise which he first thought was a car backfire. He immediately ran outside and stepped on top of a bicycle propped up against the fence. This allowed him to look into the church parking lot. The journey from the doorway to the fence would only have taken him a few seconds.

Coleman was first interviewed by the Dallas Police on 11th April 1963 (click here for Police report). He said he saw a man getting into a 1949 or 1950 Ford who “took off in a hurry.” He saw a second man further down the parking lot at another car, bending over the front seat as if he was putting something in the back.

....

Two unidentified men were also seen acting suspiciously around Walker’s house on 8th April 1963. Robert Surrey was a close associate of General Walker and had set up a publishing company with him. It was actually Surrey who was responsible for the Wanted for Treason leaflets distributed around Dallas at the time of JFK’s visit.

Surrey told police and the FBI that around 9pm to 9:30pm on 8th April 1963, he had just arrived at Walker’s house and was planning to drive up the alley (where the shot was fired two nights later). He observed two men sitting in a 1963 Ford just off the alley. Surrey parked elsewhere and went back to see what these men were up to. He saw them get out of the car and walk up the alley. They went into the area at the rear of the property and looked in windows. Surrey took the opportunity to check their car. There was no license plate. He opened the glove compartment but saw nothing that would help identify the men. About 30 minutes later, the men returned to their car and Surrey followed them in his. He did not follow them long.

Surrey confirmed that he had never seen the men before or after that night. Like Coleman, he also provided a description to police and confirmed to them in June 1964 that he was of the opinion that neither man was Lee Harvey Oswald (click here for FBI report on Surrey statement).


https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/oswald-and-the-shot-at-walker-redressing-the-balance


« Last Edit: July 11, 2023, 04:31:12 AM by Jon Banks »

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Re: The Walker Case
« Reply #164 on: July 11, 2023, 04:28:52 AM »


Offline Jon Banks

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Re: The Walker Case
« Reply #165 on: July 11, 2023, 04:55:32 AM »
Who was General Edwin Walker? A Rightwing extremist who believed JFK was a communist.

https://www.youtube.com/live/quqzNA00F54?feature=share
https://www.youtube.com/live/K6IKhtf5yFk?feature=share
« Last Edit: July 11, 2023, 04:58:23 AM by Jon Banks »

Offline John Mytton

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Re: The Walker Case
« Reply #166 on: July 11, 2023, 07:31:58 AM »
I said it could have been planted. The fact is, the police didn't find the letter when they searched the Paine home on 11/22/63. It wasn't found til a few days later with the help of Ruth Paine.

Even if Oswald did write the note, the lack of a date or mention of Walker makes it useless as evidence.

Also worth mentioning that neither Lee nor Marina's fingerprints were found on the note.

I'm not arguing that Oswald 'couldn't have done it'. I'm clarifying that the evidence linking Oswald to the Walker shooting is very weak.

There's a difference between saying 'he couldn't have done it' versus my saying 'there's not enough evidence to conclude that he did it'.


The story that you describe makes it even more incredible that no one saw Oswald anywhere near Walker's home on the night of the shooting.

The only witness described suspects who didn't fit Oswald's description:

The best witness to the Walker shooting incident was fourteen-year-old, Walter Kirk Coleman. He lived on Newton, which was just north of Walker’s house and overlooked the Mormon Church and parking lot.

On the evening of 10th April 1963, he was at home standing in the doorway which led from his bedroom to the outside of the house. He heard a loud noise which he first thought was a car backfire. He immediately ran outside and stepped on top of a bicycle propped up against the fence. This allowed him to look into the church parking lot. The journey from the doorway to the fence would only have taken him a few seconds.

Coleman was first interviewed by the Dallas Police on 11th April 1963 (click here for Police report). He said he saw a man getting into a 1949 or 1950 Ford who “took off in a hurry.” He saw a second man further down the parking lot at another car, bending over the front seat as if he was putting something in the back.

....

Two unidentified men were also seen acting suspiciously around Walker’s house on 8th April 1963. Robert Surrey was a close associate of General Walker and had set up a publishing company with him. It was actually Surrey who was responsible for the Wanted for Treason leaflets distributed around Dallas at the time of JFK’s visit.

Surrey told police and the FBI that around 9pm to 9:30pm on 8th April 1963, he had just arrived at Walker’s house and was planning to drive up the alley (where the shot was fired two nights later). He observed two men sitting in a 1963 Ford just off the alley. Surrey parked elsewhere and went back to see what these men were up to. He saw them get out of the car and walk up the alley. They went into the area at the rear of the property and looked in windows. Surrey took the opportunity to check their car. There was no license plate. He opened the glove compartment but saw nothing that would help identify the men. About 30 minutes later, the men returned to their car and Surrey followed them in his. He did not follow them long.

Surrey confirmed that he had never seen the men before or after that night. Like Coleman, he also provided a description to police and confirmed to them in June 1964 that he was of the opinion that neither man was Lee Harvey Oswald (click here for FBI report on Surrey statement).


https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/oswald-and-the-shot-at-walker-redressing-the-balance

Quote
I said it could have been planted.

The Walker note was in Russian and Oswald's hand writing.

Quote
The fact is, the police didn't find the letter when they searched the Paine home on 11/22/63. It wasn't found til a few days later with the help of Ruth Paine.


Wasn't the Walker note secreted in a Book? And I hope you aren't throwing kindly Quaker Ruth Paine under a bus?

Quote
Even if Oswald did write the note, the lack of a date or mention of Walker makes it useless as evidence.

As you keep saying but I and many others don't agree.

Quote
Also worth mentioning that neither Lee nor Marina's fingerprints were found on the note.

Oswald's handwriting was analysed as writing the note.

Quote
I'm not arguing that Oswald 'couldn't have done it'. I'm clarifying that the evidence linking Oswald to the Walker shooting is very weak.

There's a difference between saying 'he couldn't have done it' versus my saying 'there's not enough evidence to conclude that he did it'

Fair enough, Oswald is dead and there won't be a trial on the Walker assassination attempt. It's only a historical curiosity which sheds light on the double murderer Lee Harvey Oswald.

Quote
The story that you describe makes it even more incredible that no one saw Oswald anywhere near Walker's home on the night of the shooting.

So no comment on Marina's knowing about the close proximity of the Church and the mid week meeting? Duly noted.

Quote
The only witness described suspects who didn't fit Oswald's description:

The best witness to the Walker shooting incident was fourteen-year-old, Walter Kirk Coleman. He lived on Newton, which was just north of Walker’s house and overlooked the Mormon Church and parking lot.

On the evening of 10th April 1963, he was at home standing in the doorway which led from his bedroom to the outside of the house. He heard a loud noise which he first thought was a car backfire. He immediately ran outside and stepped on top of a bicycle propped up against the fence. This allowed him to look into the church parking lot. The journey from the doorway to the fence would only have taken him a few seconds.

Coleman was first interviewed by the Dallas Police on 11th April 1963 (click here for Police report). He said he saw a man getting into a 1949 or 1950 Ford who “took off in a hurry.” He saw a second man further down the parking lot at another car, bending over the front seat as if he was putting something in the back.

....

Two unidentified men were also seen acting suspiciously around Walker’s house on 8th April 1963. Robert Surrey was a close associate of General Walker and had set up a publishing company with him. It was actually Surrey who was responsible for the Wanted for Treason leaflets distributed around Dallas at the time of JFK’s visit.

Surrey told police and the FBI that around 9pm to 9:30pm on 8th April 1963, he had just arrived at Walker’s house and was planning to drive up the alley (where the shot was fired two nights later). He observed two men sitting in a 1963 Ford just off the alley. Surrey parked elsewhere and went back to see what these men were up to. He saw them get out of the car and walk up the alley. They went into the area at the rear of the property and looked in windows. Surrey took the opportunity to check their car. There was no license plate. He opened the glove compartment but saw nothing that would help identify the men. About 30 minutes later, the men returned to their car and Surrey followed them in his. He did not follow them long.

Surrey confirmed that he had never seen the men before or after that night. Like Coleman, he also provided a description to police and confirmed to them in June 1964 that he was of the opinion that neither man was Lee Harvey Oswald (click here for FBI report on Surrey statement).


https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/oswald-and-the-shot-at-walker-redressing-the-balance

Real interesting but where to start?

My quick notes. Please check for any mistakes and I will make corrections.

Kirk Coleman on the day after tells Police the only description was the man who got in the 1949 or 1950 Ford was middle sized with long black hair, Kirk tells the FBI almost a full year later that the white man was real skinny, dark bushy hair, a thin face, with a large nose, about 5'10 19 years old and about 130 pounds wearing Khaki pants and a sports shirt, gets into a 1950 white or beige Ford and drives away in a hurry. Later tells FBI that car drives off at normal rate of speed.
The other man 6'1 200 pounds, no age, long sleeve shirt with dark pants, Tells Police the man in the other car doesn't seem to be in a hurry, the only description of the car is black with a white stripe and later tells the FBI the 2nd man is leaning into the back seat of an open door, 2 door black over white 1958 Chevrolet sedan, Kirk doesn't see 2nd man leave.
Coleman initially tells the Police that the lights in the car park were not on and later tells the FBI that he was able to observe this even though it was night time because the car park was lit by a flood light.

Besides two men occupying the same car park on a church meeting night, who at one point were about ten yards apart of each other, I can not find any meaningful connection?

Robert Surrey on the night of the 8th( two days before) says the men were in their 30's and between 5'10 and 6 foot and one was 160 and the other 190 pounds.
They were well dressed in suits, dress shirts and ties.
They got out of a 1963 4 door Ford dark brown or maroon. They walk up alley to the Walker house and look through the windows and Leave about half an hour later, Surrey gets into car and checks glovebox for ID? (a new 1963 car was left unlocked?)
Tells FBI he was not certain if he could identify either man again, but was of the opinion that neither man was identical to Lee Harvey Oswald.

Links
Police report for Kirk Coleman
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338185/m1/15/?q=General%20Edwin%20Walker

FBI report for both Surrey and Coleman.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=60410#relPageId=117&search=%22Robert_Surrey%22

The following commentary is from Kennedy's and King! ? ? ?
Were these the two men that returned to the Walker house two days later and were they the same ones seen by Walter Kirk Coleman? Their identities will probably never be known now, which is just another mystery in this case that has so many.
https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/oswald-and-the-shot-at-walker-redressing-the-balance

JohnM
« Last Edit: July 11, 2023, 07:34:51 AM by John Mytton »

Online Charles Collins

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Re: The Walker Case
« Reply #167 on: July 11, 2023, 11:54:55 AM »
I said it could have been planted. The fact is, the police didn't find the letter when they searched the Paine home on 11/22/63. It wasn't found til a few days later with the help of Ruth Paine.

Even if Oswald did write the note, the lack of a date or mention of Walker makes it useless as evidence.

Also worth mentioning that neither Lee nor Marina's fingerprints were found on the note.

I'm not arguing that Oswald 'couldn't have done it'. I'm clarifying that the evidence linking Oswald to the Walker shooting is very weak.

There's a difference between saying 'he couldn't have done it' versus my saying 'there's not enough evidence to conclude that he did it'.


The story that you describe makes it even more incredible that no one saw Oswald anywhere near Walker's home on the night of the shooting.

The only witness described suspects who didn't fit Oswald's description:

The best witness to the Walker shooting incident was fourteen-year-old, Walter Kirk Coleman. He lived on Newton, which was just north of Walker’s house and overlooked the Mormon Church and parking lot.

On the evening of 10th April 1963, he was at home standing in the doorway which led from his bedroom to the outside of the house. He heard a loud noise which he first thought was a car backfire. He immediately ran outside and stepped on top of a bicycle propped up against the fence. This allowed him to look into the church parking lot. The journey from the doorway to the fence would only have taken him a few seconds.

Coleman was first interviewed by the Dallas Police on 11th April 1963 (click here for Police report). He said he saw a man getting into a 1949 or 1950 Ford who “took off in a hurry.” He saw a second man further down the parking lot at another car, bending over the front seat as if he was putting something in the back.

....

Two unidentified men were also seen acting suspiciously around Walker’s house on 8th April 1963. Robert Surrey was a close associate of General Walker and had set up a publishing company with him. It was actually Surrey who was responsible for the Wanted for Treason leaflets distributed around Dallas at the time of JFK’s visit.

Surrey told police and the FBI that around 9pm to 9:30pm on 8th April 1963, he had just arrived at Walker’s house and was planning to drive up the alley (where the shot was fired two nights later). He observed two men sitting in a 1963 Ford just off the alley. Surrey parked elsewhere and went back to see what these men were up to. He saw them get out of the car and walk up the alley. They went into the area at the rear of the property and looked in windows. Surrey took the opportunity to check their car. There was no license plate. He opened the glove compartment but saw nothing that would help identify the men. About 30 minutes later, the men returned to their car and Surrey followed them in his. He did not follow them long.

Surrey confirmed that he had never seen the men before or after that night. Like Coleman, he also provided a description to police and confirmed to them in June 1964 that he was of the opinion that neither man was Lee Harvey Oswald (click here for FBI report on Surrey statement).


https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/oswald-and-the-shot-at-walker-redressing-the-balance


Even if Oswald did write the note, the lack of a date or mention of Walker makes it useless as evidence.

Please give us an explanation as to why you think this. I already explained that neither a date or the mention of Walker would have been needed or even desired in order to give Marina instructions as to what to do if LHO didn’t return home. Why do you think the lack of these two items makes it “useless as evidence”? When one combines the note with Marina’s testimony and the experts testimony regarding the handwriting, it is crystal clear that it is very strong and incriminating evidence. The claim that Marina was unreliable as a witness is just not true. Here’s another snip from the jury instructions:

It will be up to you to decide which witnesses to believe, which witnesses not to believe, and how much of any witness's testimony to accept or reject.

So, a jury can decide that part of a witness’ testimony is not accurate while deciding that another part of that same witness’ testimony is accurate. When the physical evidence supports Marina’s testimony, as it does regarding the Walker case, a jury would need evidence that her testimony was not true in order to reject it. Conjecture that someone could have planted it (with no probative evidence that it was planted) could not be considered by a jury. But the naysayers apparently think otherwise.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The Walker Case
« Reply #167 on: July 11, 2023, 11:54:55 AM »