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Author Topic: The Iron Sights  (Read 4604 times)

Online Charles Collins

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The Iron Sights
« on: July 22, 2023, 02:54:34 PM »
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I am beginning to compile a comparison of the Carcano 91/38 short rifle specs to the M1 rifle (that LHO would have trained with in the USMC) specs. And I welcome any and all assistance in this endeavor. Please point me to sources of specifications regarding the iron sights, the bullet performance specifications, etc. To begin with, the following general items appear to me. Please feel free to correct anything that doesn’t look correct and I will change things accordingly. Thanks.

Carcano 91/38 short rifle:

Iron sights: fixed at 200-meters (non-adjustable)
Muzzle velocity: ~2100 feet-per-second


M1 rifle:

Iron sights: adjustable from 100-yards to 1200-yards in 100-yard increments plus finer adjustments
Muzzle velocity: ~2900 feet-per-second

I am also needing the distance between the centers of the bores and the iron sights’ point of reference (the point that is used to place inline with the target in order to aim accurately) of both rifles. Also, the distance between the center of the bore and the center of the scope as mounted on the rifle found on the sixth floor of the TSBD. Thanks in advance for the help.

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The Iron Sights
« on: July 22, 2023, 02:54:34 PM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: The Iron Sights
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2023, 06:16:50 PM »
I am beginning to compile a comparison of the Carcano 91/38 short rifle specs to the M1 rifle (that LHO would have trained with in the USMC) specs. And I welcome any and all assistance in this endeavor. Please point me to sources of specifications regarding the iron sights, the bullet performance specifications, etc. To begin with, the following general items appear to me. Please feel free to correct anything that doesn’t look correct and I will change things accordingly. Thanks.

Carcano 91/38 short rifle:

Iron sights: fixed at 200-meters (non-adjustable)
Muzzle velocity: ~2100 feet-per-second


M1 rifle:

Iron sights: adjustable from 100-yards to 1200-yards in 100-yard increments plus finer adjustments
Muzzle velocity: ~2900 feet-per-second

I am also needing the distance between the centers of the bores and the iron sights’ point of reference (the point that is used to place inline with the target in order to aim accurately) of both rifles. Also, the distance between the center of the bore and the center of the scope as mounted on the rifle found on the sixth floor of the TSBD. Thanks in advance for the help.

I am also needing the distance between the centers of the bores and the iron sights’ point of reference (the point that is used to place inline with the target in order to aim accurately) of both rifles.

Carcano ---- .692 "

Online Charles Collins

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Re: The Iron Sights
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2023, 06:37:53 PM »
I am also needing the distance between the centers of the bores and the iron sights’ point of reference (the point that is used to place inline with the target in order to aim accurately) of both rifles.

Carcano ---- .692 "


Thank you very much Walt. That is most helpful!

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Re: The Iron Sights
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2023, 06:37:53 PM »


Offline Michael T. Griffith

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Re: The Iron Sights
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2023, 07:06:26 PM »
I am beginning to compile a comparison of the Carcano 91/38 short rifle specs to the M1 rifle (that LHO would have trained with in the USMC) specs. And I welcome any and all assistance in this endeavor. Please point me to sources of specifications regarding the iron sights, the bullet performance specifications, etc. To begin with, the following general items appear to me. Please feel free to correct anything that doesn’t look correct and I will change things accordingly. Thanks.

Carcano 91/38 short rifle:

Iron sights: fixed at 200-meters (non-adjustable)
Muzzle velocity: ~2100 feet-per-second

M1 rifle:

Iron sights: adjustable from 100-yards to 1200-yards in 100-yard increments plus finer adjustments
Muzzle velocity: ~2900 feet-per-second

I am also needing the distance between the centers of the bores and the iron sights’ point of reference (the point that is used to place inline with the target in order to aim accurately) of both rifles. Also, the distance between the center of the bore and the center of the scope as mounted on the rifle found on the sixth floor of the TSBD. Thanks in advance for the help.

This is a waste of time, since the Master-rated riflemen in the WC's rifle test did not even come to close to duplicating Oswald's alleged shooting feat while using the alleged murder weapon.

As anyone can see from looking at the target boards from the WC’s rifle test (CE 582, CE 583, and CE 584), the expert riflemen missed the head and neck area of the targets 19 out of 21 times. One of those two hits was near the very top of the head, noticeably higher than where Oswald allegedly hit JFK in the head. The targets were paper targets on target boards. The targets resembled the top half of a human silhouette, basically from the middle of the back to the top of the head.

Even allowing for a center-of-target aiming point, the Master-rated riflemen came nowhere near duplicating Oswald’s alleged shooting feat.

On the first-shot target, most of the shots landed in or near the middle area of the target, with two noticeable misses. Only one of the shots landed in the head. With the exception of the hit in the head, all the shots hit several inches below the point where Oswald allegedly hit JFK in the upper back/lower neck.

On the second-shot target, not one of the shots hit the middle part of the target. Not one. Four of the shots missed the target completely, and three others nearly did so. One of the shots hit almost at the very top of the target, far from the aiming point but equating to a hit near the very top of the head.

On the third-shot target, once again, not one of the shots landed in the middle part of the target. One of the shots missed the target by about 3 inches. Several other shots landed near the bottom edge of the target.

Obviously, these results do not resemble Oswald’s alleged shooting feat. This fact is even more revealing because the riflemen in the WC's rifle test fired from an elevation of only 30 feet (not 60 feet), were able to take as much time as they wanted for their first shot (a luxury Oswald would not have had), did not fire from the cramped confines of the sniper's nest, did not fire through a half-open window, and fired at stationary targets (not moving targets).
« Last Edit: July 22, 2023, 07:07:21 PM by Michael T. Griffith »

Online Charles Collins

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Re: The Iron Sights
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2023, 07:59:49 PM »
This is meant to be educational for those who might be interested. For the record, I am not an expert in these matters. I am presenting this as a work-in-progress and it will be shown as an ongoing experiment as I am able to show it. And I am open for constructive criticism. Here is a basic diagram showing the typical trajectory of a bullet vs the line of sight:



Please note that the path of the bullet crosses the line of sight to the target twice, once relatively close to the muzzle and again at the target (when the sights are zeroed-in at the exact distance from the rifle to the target). The angles are exaggerated to make it feasible to show in the diagram.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2023, 08:06:09 PM by Charles Collins »

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Re: The Iron Sights
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2023, 07:59:49 PM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: The Iron Sights
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2023, 08:03:11 PM »
This is a waste of time, since the Master-rated riflemen in the WC's rifle test did not even come to close to duplicating Oswald's alleged shooting feat while using the alleged murder weapon.

As anyone can see from looking at the target boards from the WC’s rifle test (CE 582, CE 583, and CE 584), the expert riflemen missed the head and neck area of the targets 19 out of 21 times. One of those two hits was near the very top of the head, noticeably higher than where Oswald allegedly hit JFK in the head. The targets were paper targets on target boards. The targets resembled the top half of a human silhouette, basically from the middle of the back to the top of the head.

Even allowing for a center-of-target aiming point, the Master-rated riflemen came nowhere near duplicating Oswald’s alleged shooting feat.

On the first-shot target, most of the shots landed in or near the middle area of the target, with two noticeable misses. Only one of the shots landed in the head. With the exception of the hit in the head, all the shots hit several inches below the point where Oswald allegedly hit JFK in the upper back/lower neck.

On the second-shot target, not one of the shots hit the middle part of the target. Not one. Four of the shots missed the target completely, and three others nearly did so. One of the shots hit almost at the very top of the target, far from the aiming point but equating to a hit near the very top of the head.

On the third-shot target, once again, not one of the shots landed in the middle part of the target. One of the shots missed the target by about 3 inches. Several other shots landed near the bottom edge of the target.

Obviously, these results do not resemble Oswald’s alleged shooting feat. This fact is even more revealing because the riflemen in the WC's rifle test fired from an elevation of only 30 feet (not 60 feet), were able to take as much time as they wanted for their first shot (a luxury Oswald would not have had), did not fire from the cramped confines of the sniper's nest, did not fire through a half-open window, and fired at stationary targets (not moving targets).


This is a waste of time…

If this is your opinion, then please feel free to ignore it.

Online Charles Collins

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Re: The Iron Sights
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2023, 08:58:47 PM »
This chart shows the estimated trajectory of the M1 rifle’s bullet, at a velocity of approximately 2900 feet per second:




http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php?t=c15c17dc


Please note that at the apex of the bullet’s trajectory, there is only about 2” of compensation needed in order to hit the target dead center. And that the apex is between 100 and 125 yards from the muzzle of the rifle. In other words, to hit the target dead center (if it was between 100 and 125 yards from the muzzle instead of the 200 yard zeroed-in point), the shooter would need to compensate by aiming about 2” below the center of the target.

Online Charles Collins

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Re: The Iron Sights
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2023, 09:14:31 PM »
This graph shows the Carcano short rifle’s bullet’s trajectory at a muzzle velocity of about 2100 feet per second:




http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php?t=3d6a285b


Please note that the apex of the trajectory is about 6” above the line of sight of the iron sights and the apex occurs between 100 and 125 yards from the muzzle of the rifle. This means that in order to hit the center of a target between 100 to 125 yards from the muzzle (instead of the 219 yard (200 meter) zeroed-in distance) a shooter would need to aim about 6” below the center of the target.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2023, 11:36:58 AM by Charles Collins »

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Re: The Iron Sights
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2023, 09:14:31 PM »