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Author Topic: Where Did Prayer Woman Go After The Shooting?  (Read 24504 times)

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: Where Did Prayer Woman Go After The Shooting?
« Reply #120 on: September 20, 2023, 11:53:49 PM »
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Which film does this clip come from? Where can it be found in the context of the rest of the film?





It's a clip from Jimmy Darnell's film.
Like the Couch film it shows the moment of Baker's dash towards the TSBD building.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2023, 11:55:12 PM by Dan O'meara »

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Re: Where Did Prayer Woman Go After The Shooting?
« Reply #120 on: September 20, 2023, 11:53:49 PM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: Where Did Prayer Woman Go After The Shooting?
« Reply #121 on: September 21, 2023, 12:26:32 AM »


It's a clip from Jimmy Darnell's film.
Like the Couch film it shows the moment of Baker's dash towards the TSBD building.


Thanks, some of the versions of the Couch Darnell film online don’t show that part of it. I agree that MacNeil was elsewhere according to his statements and the other photograph shown in this thread that shows him near the railroad tracks.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2023, 12:43:26 AM by Charles Collins »

Offline Michael Welch

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Re: Where Did Prayer Woman Go After The Shooting?
« Reply #122 on: September 21, 2023, 01:05:02 AM »

Thanks, some of the versions of the Couch Darnell film online don’t show that part of it. I agree that MacNeil was elsewhere according to his statements and the other photograph shown in this thread that shows him near the railroad tracks.

Hi Charles and Dan, MacNeil was actually on the press bus when Couch and Darnell were filming! I agree. The man at the bottom of the steps cannot be MacNeil. I stand corrected! Thank you both for your valuable input! Sincerely yours, Michael
   

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Re: Where Did Prayer Woman Go After The Shooting?
« Reply #122 on: September 21, 2023, 01:05:02 AM »


Online Dan O'meara

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Re: Where Did Prayer Woman Go After The Shooting?
« Reply #123 on: September 21, 2023, 04:23:46 PM »
Hi Charles and Dan, MacNeil was actually on the press bus when Couch and Darnell were filming! I agree. The man at the bottom of the steps cannot be MacNeil. I stand corrected! Thank you both for your valuable input! Sincerely yours, Michael
 

This brings us back to the identification of this man as Bill Shelley.
In what follows I am going to use an estimation of 25 seconds after the head-shot for when the Darnell clip begins. It is an assumption in lieu of an exact timing but cannot be too far from the actual time.
I would like to examine the feasibility of the scenario I outlined in Reply#171, which was my personal opinion of the identification of Calvery on the steps of the TSBD building as shown in the Darnell clip.



From her position marked on the map above, Calvery runs up to the position marked A, where she passes Shelley, who has come from the front steps.
The distance from Calvery's position to the front steps is approximately 150 feet (using Roberdeau's scale). At a modest run of 8mph this distance can be covered in less than 13 seconds. In the 25 seconds allotted she would have to reach point"A", interact with Shelley, then point "B", interact with officer Smith, then reach the TSBD steps.
Shelley, Lovelady and Smith make the point that Gloria was running (I'm assuming the hysterical woman is Gloria). Both her interactions [with Shelley and Smith] appear to be quick - she simply tells Shelley the President has been shot and as soon as she tells Smith that shots were coming from the"bushes" he immediately heads off in that direction.
In the Darnell clip we first see Smith about half way up the Elm Street extension heading towards the bushes that would've been directly behind Calvery's position as she stood on Elm Street. If we can extrapolate Smith's movements "backwards" it seems reasonable to assume he has crossed paths with Gloria some 5 - 10 seconds before the Darnell clip begins.
In the Darnell clip Gloria, wearing a black headscarf and stood about 2 or 3 steps up, appears to be facing a bald-headed man who takes a steps down towards her. This is Lovelady, who recounts his interaction with Gloria while he is on the front steps. It is around this moment that Frazier, stood at the top of the steps, recalls a woman in distress, telling the people on the steps about the shooting, in a "low kind of hollering".
Baker reaches the area near the bottom of the steps towards the end of the clip around which time he reports a woman screaming "They shot that man" or something to that effect.
Shelley, who ran across the street to around point "A", returns to the bottom of the front steps and can be seen in the Darnell clip as he reaches this position - he takes a step or two towards Gloria, then turns to his left, facing down the Elm Street extension towards the railroad.







« Last Edit: September 21, 2023, 04:26:59 PM by Dan O'meara »

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Where Did Prayer Woman Go After The Shooting?
« Reply #124 on: September 21, 2023, 06:23:06 PM »
This brings us back to the identification of this man as Bill Shelley.

I agree with you on the Ms. Calvery & Mr. Lovelady identifications, but not even Mr. Shelley's suit made him look this broad:


The man in Darnell is too large IMO
« Last Edit: September 21, 2023, 06:23:44 PM by Alan Ford »

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Re: Where Did Prayer Woman Go After The Shooting?
« Reply #124 on: September 21, 2023, 06:23:06 PM »


Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Where Did Prayer Woman Go After The Shooting?
« Reply #125 on: September 21, 2023, 06:34:21 PM »
Baker reaches the area near the bottom of the steps towards the end of the clip around which time he reports a woman screaming "They shot that man" or something to that effect.

Separate issue, so treating it separately here.............

Officer Baker is not heading for the steps.

Mr. BAKER - At this point, I looked down here as I was parking my motorcycle and these people on this ground here, on the sidewalk, there were several of them falling, and they were rolling around down there, and all these people were rushing back, a lot of them were grabbing their children, and I noticed one, I didn't know who he was, but there was a man ran out into the crowd and back.
Mr. BELIN - Did you notice anything else?
Mr. BAKER - Except there was a woman standing--well, all these people were running, and there was a woman screaming, "Oh, they have shot that man, they have shot that man."


He's half-telling us an all-important fact here: there was indeed a woman standing, and Darnell shows him running in a straight line not for the entrance steps but for her:



Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Where Did Prayer Woman Go After The Shooting?
« Reply #126 on: September 21, 2023, 06:36:05 PM »
Question!

How many seconds after the final shot did this DPD radio dispatch go out?

“Stand by one. All units and officers in vicinity of station report to the railroad track area, just north of Elm. Report to the railroad track area, just north of Elm.”

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Re: Where Did Prayer Woman Go After The Shooting?
« Reply #126 on: September 21, 2023, 06:36:05 PM »


Online Dan O'meara

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Re: Where Did Prayer Woman Go After The Shooting?
« Reply #127 on: September 21, 2023, 07:01:35 PM »
I agree with you on the Ms. Calvery & Mr. Lovelady identifications, but not even Mr. Shelley's suit made him look this broad:


The man in Darnell is too large IMO

There's no way to compare the physique of the two men in these pictures. All that can be said is that both are wearing baggy, dark coloured suits.
Lovelady's testimony (I really am not a fan of relying on his or Shelley's words unless I feel they are corroborated) states that Shelley was close by while he was having his interaction with Gloria. Shelley states he returned to the steps after meeting Gloria which I believe is what the Darnell clip shows. It seems fairly well established both men left this area together so we should see them in fairly close proximity during this moment.
I'm not seeing anything conclusive in terms of the comparison above to jettison the identification.