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Author Topic: RIP to the Single-bullet theory?  (Read 52751 times)

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: RIP to the Single-bullet theory?
« Reply #296 on: September 23, 2023, 08:46:51 PM »
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Via this January 2014 discussion....


GARRY PUFFER SAID:

Why did Lt. Day refuse to sign an affidavit concerning his lifting of the palm print?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

That's also explained in CE3145. Didn't you even bother to read it?

Lt. Day told the FBI's Vincent Drain in CE3145 that since he (Day) had already written a fairly detailed report about the finding of the palmprint on January 8, 1964, he thought that report would suffice for the September '64 inquiry. And that January '64 report of Lt. Day's is even included (verbatim) in Drain's report that appears in CE3145.

But I guess conspiracy theorists like Garry Puffer must be of the odd opinion that Lieutenant Carl Day lied multiple times when he said he lifted a palmprint off of Rifle C2766 (even lying under oath to the Warren Commission) -- but he didn't want to fill out an official affidavit in September of 1964 because he felt he just couldn't lie one more time about the palmprint. He lied and lied and lied UP UNTIL SEPTEMBER--but he just wouldn't lie again.

Is that about the size of it, Garry?

I have read that and it's just about the most pathetic excuse imaginable; He "preferred to let the written record speak for itself".

The mere fact that the WC asked him to explain the palmprint matter in an affidavit (under oath) as late as September 1964 should tell you one thing; they were not convinced by Day's story. In other words; it's pretty clear they questioned the veracity of his previous statements.

Obviously, by that date and being under time pressure, they hardly had any other option but to "accept" Day's version of events as not doing so would cause doubt about Oswald being the shooter and they couldn't have that, but if you step back and think about it rationally, this whole thing stinks to high heaven.

This was the biggest murder case of the decade and here's the chief forensic officer of the DPD completely messing up a piece of potentially crucial evidence, by holding back the print, not sharing it with the FBI for several days and not even bothering to compare the print with those of Oswald's, thus displaying a total lack of interest in the matter. And then there people like DVP and "Richard Smith" who see no problem at all... Go figure!

What possible reason could Day have had for his refusal to produce an affidavit? Why would he prefer to stand by his statements in an internal report?
« Last Edit: September 23, 2023, 09:59:18 PM by Martin Weidmann »

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Re: RIP to the Single-bullet theory?
« Reply #296 on: September 23, 2023, 08:46:51 PM »


Online John Iacoletti

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Re: RIP to the Single-bullet theory?
« Reply #297 on: September 24, 2023, 03:58:19 AM »
A written report to a supervisor is not made under oath under penalty of perjury.

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: RIP to the Single-bullet theory?
« Reply #298 on: September 24, 2023, 10:52:46 AM »
A written report to a supervisor is not made under oath under penalty of perjury.

He nervous....................


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Re: RIP to the Single-bullet theory?
« Reply #298 on: September 24, 2023, 10:52:46 AM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: RIP to the Single-bullet theory?
« Reply #299 on: September 24, 2023, 11:36:33 AM »
A written report to a supervisor is not made under oath under penalty of perjury.

Who even requested an affidavit? Where is that request? FBI agents are not authorized to take affidavits, so why would they send Drain for that?

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: RIP to the Single-bullet theory?
« Reply #300 on: September 24, 2023, 12:09:11 PM »
Who even requested an affidavit? Where is that request? FBI agents are not authorized to take affidavits, so why would they send Drain for that?

Hardly relevant questions.

On September 1, 1964 the WC requested "certain investigation into the circumstances under which Lieutenant J.C. Day of the Dallas Police Department processed the assassination rifle for latent fingerprints and palm prints........"

Day, however, refused to cooperate, by stating that he preferred to let the written (internal DPD) report speak for itself and "would rather elaborate orally on the lifting of the palm print <...> rather than to make a written signed statement".

Statements like that are normally made in a affidavit in front of a notary, but even if he wasn't asked to sign an affidavit, why would Day decline to make "a written signed statement"?




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Re: RIP to the Single-bullet theory?
« Reply #300 on: September 24, 2023, 12:09:11 PM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: RIP to the Single-bullet theory?
« Reply #301 on: September 24, 2023, 01:04:37 PM »
Latona tells us WTF happened:


Mr. LATONA.  …After that had been determined, I then proceeded to completely process the entire rifle, to see if there were any other prints of any significance or value any prints of value--I would not know what the significance would be, but to see if there were any other prints. I completely covered the rifle. I also had a firearms man----
Representative BOGGS. What do you cover it with?
Mr. LATONA. Gray fingerprint powder.
Representative BOGGS. What is that powder?
Mr. LATONA. It is usually a combination of chalk and mercury, or possibly white lead and a little bit of resin material to give it some weight.
Mr. EISENBERG. And you testified earlier that that adheres----
Mr. LATONA. To the moisture that was left by the finger, the fingers or the hands, when it came in contact with the surface.

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Mr. LATONA. This particular weapon here, first of all, in my opinion, the metal is very poorly finished. It is absorbent. Believe it or not, there is a certain amount of absorption into this metal itself. It is not finished in the sense that it is highly polished.
Representative BOGGS. So this would be conducive to getting a good print, or would it?
Mr. LATONA. It would not.
Representative BOGGS. I see---because it would absorb the moisture.
Mr. LATONA. That's right.

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Mr. EISENBERG. …Mr. Latona, you were saying that you had worked over that rifle by applying a gray powder to it. Did you develop any fingerprints?
Mr. LATONA. I was not successful in developing any prints at all on the weapon. I also had one of the firearms examiners dismantle the weapon and I processed the complete weapon, all parts, everything else. And no latent prints of value were developed.
Mr. EISENBERG. Does that include the clip?
Mr. LATONA. That included the clip, that included the bolt, it included the underside of the barrel which is covered by the stock.

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Mr. EISENBERG. I now hand you a small white card marked with certain initials and with a date, "11-22-63." There is a cellophane wrapping, cellophane tape across this card with what appears to be a fingerprint underneath it, and the handwriting underneath that tape is "off underside of gun barrel near end of foregrip C 2766," which I might remark parenthetically is the serial number of Exhibit 139. I ask you whether you are familiar with this item which I hand you, this card?
Mr. LATONA. Yes; I am familiar with this particular exhibit.
Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe to us what that exhibit consists of, that item rather?
Mr. LATONA. This exhibit Or this item is a lift of a latent palmprint which was evidently developed with black powder.
Mr. EISENBERG. And when did you receive this item?
Mr. LATONA. I received this item November 29, 1963.

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Mr. EISENBERG. Did you succeed in making identification?
Mr. LATONA. On the basis of my comparison, I did effect an identification.
Mr. EISENBERG. And whose print was that, Mr. Latona?
Mr. LATONA. The palmprint which appears on the lift was identified by me as the right palmprint of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Latona, as I understand it, on November 23, therefore, the FBI had not succeeded in making an identification of a fingerprint or palmprint on the rifle, but several days later by virtue of the receipt of this lift, which did not come with the weapon originally, the FBI did succeed in identifying a print on Exhibit 139?
Mr. LATONA. That is right.
Mr. EISENBERG. Which may explain any inconsistent or apparently inconsistent statements, which I believe appeared in the press, as to an identification?
Mr. LATONA. We had no personal knowledge of any palmprint having been developed on the rifle. The only prints that we knew of were the fragmentary prints which I previously pointed out had been indicated by the cellophane on the trigger guard. There was no indication on this rifle as to the existence of any other prints. This print which indicates it came from the underside of the gun barrel, evidently the lifting had been so complete that there was nothing left to show any marking on the gun itself as to the existence of such even an attempt on the part of anyone else to process the rifle.
Mr. DULLES. Do I understand then that if there is a lifting of this kind, that it may obliterate----
Mr. LATONA. Completely.
Mr. DULLES. The original print?
Mr. LATONA. That is right.
Mr. EISENBERG. So that you personally, Mr. Latona, did not know anything about a print being on the rifle which was identifiable until you received, actually received the lift, Exhibit 637?
Mr. LATONA. On the 29th of November.



Here is a theory that makes sense to me:

It appears to me that Latona (with no cellophane or any other indication that there was any kind of print, or remnants of a print, underneath the wood of the fore stock) did not see the faint remnants that Day said were left on the barrel. And Latona subsequently covered the entire gun with gray powder. The remnants that Day indicated was still on the underside of the barrel lacked enough moisture (due to the black powder’s absorbency) to adhere to the gray powder. And therefore no useable print was developed.

I believe that Day did nothing wrong except verbally relying on Drain to notify the FBI lab about the palm print (I believe that he should have documented it in writing or indicated it in some way on the rifle). The DPD had jurisdiction of the case on 11/22/63, the FBI did not have jurisdiction. Unless Day had been specifically instructed to turn over the palm print lift (he said he had not), Under the circumstances, I think it would have been wrong for Day to turn over any evidence that he had not specifically been instructed to turn over.

Online Charles Collins

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Re: RIP to the Single-bullet theory?
« Reply #302 on: September 24, 2023, 01:15:14 PM »
Hardly relevant questions.

On September 1, 1964 the WC requested "certain investigation into the circumstances under which Lieutenant J.C. Day of the Dallas Police Department processed the assassination rifle for latent fingerprints and palm prints........"

Day, however, refused to cooperate, by stating that he preferred to let the written (internal DPD) report speak for itself and "would rather elaborate orally on the lifting of the palm print <...> rather than to make a written signed statement".

Statements like that are normally made in a affidavit in front of a notary, but even if he wasn't asked to sign an affidavit, why would Day decline to make "a written signed statement"?

He preferred to let his earlier written signed statement stand instead of repeating it. That is not the same as declining to make a written signed statement.

The questions I asked are relevant because you claimed he was asked to sign an affidavit.

Why did Day refuse to sign an affidavit regarding the handling of the print when asked to do so by the WC

Care to back up your claim?

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: RIP to the Single-bullet theory?
« Reply #303 on: September 24, 2023, 01:41:36 PM »
Dan, see CE 2637. Hoover’s letter gives no indication of how this was done, or by whom, or if they had even talked to Day about what specific location he had taken his lift from. Why would the WC not speak to the person who actually did the work?

Not only that, this letter in no way explains the contradiction between the testimonies of Day and Latona.
It appears to be an unofficial "explanation" but it doesn't deal with the issue under question - why did the visible print Day insisted was on the rifle disappear by the time it reached Latona a few hours later?
In the debate so far no-one has even attempted to offer a credible explanation as to how this could have happened.
The suggestion that Latona just missed it is untenable.

Another point that is constantly "misunderstood" is that Day had the lift of the palm print to compare to the prints taken from Oswald earlier that day. Saying that Day had to stop processing the rifle doesn't mean anything - he had the two prints for comparison. He didn't need the rifle.

On 8/28/64 Wesley Leibeler wrote a memo to Rankin in which he reveals very serious misgivings concerning Day's testimony regarding the palm print. It may have been this that spurred Rankin on to get some answers from Hoover. However, none of the issues raised in this memo are dealt with in the Hoover letter:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Wx4RencS6t5BBFjK2F3ocXEwz3IHBsMJ/view


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Re: RIP to the Single-bullet theory?
« Reply #303 on: September 24, 2023, 01:41:36 PM »