Users Currently Browsing This Topic:
0 Members

Author Topic: Josiah Thompson - Who Was the Umbrella Man?  (Read 28928 times)

Offline Dan O'meara

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3160
Re: Josiah Thompson - Who Was the Umbrella Man?
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2023, 09:22:18 AM »
Advertisement
   Do your research and familiarize yourself with the story of CIA Image Expert Dino Brugioni and what he believed was the difference between the Z Film he examined the weekend after the assassination vs The Current Z film. Do the work and then we can talk. You are well behind the curve here.

Do your homework and read the Zavada Report. You'll soon put aside this alterationist nonsense.
And this is the third time you are being asked to provide the citations for your unsubstantiated claims. If you can't substantiate your claims don't bother responding.
Also, you've been asked (three times now) to answer three simple questions:

1) Is the Presidential limo shown in Weigman before it reaches the underpass?
2) Do you agree this is less than 6 seconds after the head shot, something we know from watching the Z-film?
3) Do you agree the Bell pic shows Weigman in position, filming the Hesters?

Your constant evasion demonstrates you're not the font of wisdom you might like to think you are.
You seem insecure about putting your cards on the table.



JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Josiah Thompson - Who Was the Umbrella Man?
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2023, 09:22:18 AM »


Online Royell Storing

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2883
Re: Josiah Thompson - Who Was the Umbrella Man?
« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2023, 06:40:48 PM »
Do your homework and read the Zavada Report. You'll soon put aside this alterationist nonsense.
And this is the third time you are being asked to provide the citations for your unsubstantiated claims. If you can't substantiate your claims don't bother responding.
Also, you've been asked (three times now) to answer three simple questions:

1) Is the Presidential limo shown in Weigman before it reaches the underpass?
2) Do you agree this is less than 6 seconds after the head shot, something we know from watching the Z-film?
3) Do you agree the Bell pic shows Weigman in position, filming the Hesters?

Your constant evasion demonstrates you're not the font of wisdom you might like to think you are.
You seem insecure about putting your cards on the table.

  Your call

Offline Dan O'meara

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3160
Re: Josiah Thompson - Who Was the Umbrella Man?
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2023, 01:23:18 AM »
  Your call

So, I checked out "The Zapruder Film Mystery" and was a bit puzzled.
It starts off with Horne expressing his conviction that the Z-film was altered so I expected the interview to deal with that.
However, Horne never once asked Bruglioni about whether he thought the film had been altered. The interview is about two briefing board "events", and that's it.
Bruglioni never expresses any kind of view about whether or not the film was altered and Horne doesn't ask him a single question about it.

At around the half hour mark it suddenly cuts to a different interview between Dino and Janney.
This interview appears to be about a single z-frame, 313.
Dino is talking about the debris cloud from the head shot. Janney begins to tell Dino that frame 313 is the only frame that shows the debris cloud but Dino can't believe it - "there was more than that".
Janney asks - "How many more frames do you think there would be [showing the debris cloud]?"
Dino - "I don't know but we were shocked when we saw it."

Janney is lying.
There are more than just the single frame showing the debris cloud and Dino is perfectly correct that there are multiple frames showing it:



I also noticed that not once did Dino mention [nor was he asked] about Jackie on the trunk of the limo.
In another article Horne claims that Dino saw Hill physically strike Jackie while she was on the back of the car which, of course, is not shown in the extant Z-film.
Hill striking Jackie?
Really?
Why didn't Horne think to ask him about that in this interview? Why didn't Horne even think to mention it, as his sole purpose was expose alteration in the Z-film?

There is nothing - absolutely zero - that even hints at alteration in this interview.
What am I missing here?

« Last Edit: October 31, 2023, 09:49:24 AM by Dan O'meara »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Josiah Thompson - Who Was the Umbrella Man?
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2023, 01:23:18 AM »


Offline Della Cross

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 19
Re: Josiah Thompson - Who Was the Umbrella Man?
« Reply #35 on: October 30, 2023, 01:58:28 AM »
"Brugioni never expresses any kind of view about whether or not the film was altered and Horne doesn't ask him a single question about it."

The interview with Dino Brugioni on Youtube, "The Zapruder Film Mystery," is not about Brugioni discussing whether or not the Z film was altered.  Brugioni, a WW II combat pilot (60 missions) was a photo analyst at the NPIC lab in Washington. The interview is mainly about Brugioni's memory of seeing the original 8 mm. Z film at the NPIC lab on the evening of SaPersonay, November 23, 1963. The Z film was brought to the lab by two Secret Service agents, who had not yet seen it themselves.  They wanted Brugioni to prepare displays of still photos taken from the film to be used for intelligence briefing. As Brugioni and the agents watched the original film, they were shocked by the sight of the head shot impact causing a fragment of JFK's skull to fly "three or four feet into the air," surrounded by a kind of bloody mist. Also noted by Brugioni;  the original Z film showed the motorcade turning the corner onto Elm Street; the presidential limo coming to a brief but complete, stop; JFK being thrown forward by the impact; and a gaping wound at the right rear of the president's head. Brugioni prepared the two displays as requested, with 12-15 still pix on each one.  In the early a.m. the two agents left the NPIC lab with the displays, and the original Z film.  The next time Brugioni saw the film, years later, it was clearly different. The frames showing the piece of JFK's skull flying into the air had been removed; so had the frames of the motorcade turning onto Elm Street; the impact of the head shot had been shortened to frame 313, whereas in the original Z film seen by Brugioni that impact scene was several frames longer;  the limo now slows, but does not stop;  the president is now thrown backward by the shot; and the gaping wound at the right rear of JFK's head had been blacked out. This is the Z film we see today.  According to Dino Brugioni, key scenes in today's film are different from the original Z film, which he saw at the NPIC lab on Nov. 23rd, 1963.   
 

Offline Michael Welch

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 320
Re: Josiah Thompson - Who Was the Umbrella Man?
« Reply #36 on: October 30, 2023, 05:08:37 AM »
"Brugioni never expresses any kind of view about whether or not the film was altered and Horne doesn't ask him a single question about it."

The interview with Dino Brugioni on Youtube, "The Zapruder Film Mystery," is not about Brugioni discussing whether or not the Z film was altered.  Brugioni, a WW II combat pilot (60 missions) was a photo analyst at the NPIC lab in Washington. The interview is mainly about Brugioni's memory of seeing the original 8 mm. Z film at the NPIC lab on the evening of SaPersonay, November 23, 1963. The Z film was brought to the lab by two Secret Service agents, who had not yet seen it themselves.  They wanted Brugioni to prepare displays of still photos taken from the film to be used for intelligence briefing. As Brugioni and the agents watched the original film, they were shocked by the sight of the head shot impact causing a fragment of JFK's skull to fly "three or four feet into the air," surrounded by a kind of bloody mist. Also noted by Brugioni;  the original Z film showed the motorcade turning the corner onto Elm Street; the presidential limo coming to a brief but complete, stop; JFK being thrown forward by the impact; and a gaping wound at the right rear of the president's head. Brugioni prepared the two displays as requested, with 12-15 still pix on each one.  In the early a.m. the two agents left the NPIC lab with the displays, and the original Z film.  The next time Brugioni saw the film, years later, it was clearly different. The frames showing the piece of JFK's skull flying into the air had been removed; so had the frames of the motorcade turning onto Elm Street; the impact of the head shot had been shortened to frame 313, whereas in the original Z film seen by Brugioni that impact scene was several frames longer;  the limo now slows, but does not stop;  the president is now thrown backward by the shot; and the gaping wound at the right rear of JFK's head had been blacked out. This is the Z film we see today.  According to Dino Brugioni, key scenes in today's film are different from the original Z film, which he saw at the NPIC lab on Nov. 23rd, 1963.   

Hi Della, Welcome to the forum! Thank you for schooling us on this! Sincerely yours, Michael

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Josiah Thompson - Who Was the Umbrella Man?
« Reply #36 on: October 30, 2023, 05:08:37 AM »


Offline Dan O'meara

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3160
Re: Josiah Thompson - Who Was the Umbrella Man?
« Reply #37 on: October 30, 2023, 10:22:26 AM »
"Brugioni never expresses any kind of view about whether or not the film was altered and Horne doesn't ask him a single question about it."

The interview with Dino Brugioni on Youtube, "The Zapruder Film Mystery," is not about Brugioni discussing whether or not the Z film was altered.  Brugioni, a WW II combat pilot (60 missions) was a photo analyst at the NPIC lab in Washington. The interview is mainly about Brugioni's memory of seeing the original 8 mm. Z film at the NPIC lab on the evening of SaPersonay, November 23, 1963. The Z film was brought to the lab by two Secret Service agents, who had not yet seen it themselves.  They wanted Brugioni to prepare displays of still photos taken from the film to be used for intelligence briefing. As Brugioni and the agents watched the original film, they were shocked by the sight of the head shot impact causing a fragment of JFK's skull to fly "three or four feet into the air," surrounded by a kind of bloody mist. Also noted by Brugioni;  the original Z film showed the motorcade turning the corner onto Elm Street; the presidential limo coming to a brief but complete, stop; JFK being thrown forward by the impact; and a gaping wound at the right rear of the president's head. Brugioni prepared the two displays as requested, with 12-15 still pix on each one.  In the early a.m. the two agents left the NPIC lab with the displays, and the original Z film.  The next time Brugioni saw the film, years later, it was clearly different. The frames showing the piece of JFK's skull flying into the air had been removed; so had the frames of the motorcade turning onto Elm Street; the impact of the head shot had been shortened to frame 313, whereas in the original Z film seen by Brugioni that impact scene was several frames longer;  the limo now slows, but does not stop;  the president is now thrown backward by the shot; and the gaping wound at the right rear of JFK's head had been blacked out. This is the Z film we see today.  According to Dino Brugioni, key scenes in today's film are different from the original Z film, which he saw at the NPIC lab on Nov. 23rd, 1963.   

The interview with Dino Brugioni on Youtube, "The Zapruder Film Mystery," is not about Brugioni discussing whether or not the Z film was altered.

That's the point I'm making.
"The Zapruder Film Mystery" is as much about Doug Horne as it is about Bruglioni. Horne is an out-and-out Alteration Fantasist [Altfan]. The whole point of his research is to demonstrate that the Z-film has been altered. He introduces his interview with Dino in this context, stating it is his belief the Z-film was altered by removing the limo stop, blacking out the back of JFK's head and removing frames to show debris being blasted out of the back of JFK's head, and painting on the head wound visible in the Z-film.
This last point, that the head wound was painted on, is so ridiculous it makes me feel embarrassed for Horne. It's possibly the most ludicrous claim ever made in JFK research.
The whole point of Horne's interview with Dino is to provide evidence to support his silly belief of alteration.
Horne doesn't ask him a single question about whether the Z-film was altered.
Why not? Horne has an opportunity to grill a guy who closely studied the original Z-film many times.
I find it inconceivable that Horne did not ask Dino whether there was a limo stop or whether or not Dino saw debris blown out of the back of JFK's head. Of course he asked him.
But Dino must have told Horne that there was no limo stop and there was no debris. And that's why Horne doesn't ask him about it during the interview.
If Dino had said he saw a limo stop or debris we would never hear the end of it, Horne wouldn't give a toss about the briefing boards, all he would want to hear about are the things that prove the Z-film was altered.
But, during the interview, Dino never mentions a thing that supports the fantasy that the Z-film was altered.
So Horne does something incredibly underhand.
During the interview he inserts a completely different interview with Dino and Peter Janney. The point of this interview is to fool the suckers that Dino had watched the "altered" Z-film and was saying it was different from the original he saw.
But that's not what happens.
Dino is shown a single frame, 313, and told that this is the only frame that shows the head explosion.
Dino doesn't believe it, he says there must be more frames than this showing the "mist" coming from JFK's head.
And, of course, he is right:



Janney lied to him about 313 being the only frame that showed the head explosion and Dino couldn't believe it. Horne gleefully jumps on this as 'proof' Dino saw something different but it's all a big con that the gullible just suck up without questioning.

There is not a single thing in "The Zapruder Film Mystery" that supports alteration of the Z-film. Dino made some briefing boards on SaPersonay night and was unaware that another team made some briefing boards on Sunday night. So what?
Really - so what?
It has nothing to do with film alteration.
All it means is that anyone who wanted to alter the film wasted 24 hours by giving it to Dino to make briefing boards that no-one would ever see. Why don't Altfans think about things like this?


"...Brugioni and the agents watched the original film, they were shocked by the sight of the head shot impact causing a fragment of JFK's skull to fly "three or four feet into the air," surrounded by a kind of bloody mist. Also noted by Brugioni;  the original Z film showed the motorcade turning the corner onto Elm Street; the presidential limo coming to a brief but complete, stop; JFK being thrown forward by the impact; and a gaping wound at the right rear of the president's head"

Dino never saw fragments of JFK's skull fly "three or four feet into the air".
Dino never saw the motorcade turn onto Elm Street.
Dino never saw the limo come to a stop.
Dino never saw JFK being thrown forward.
Dino never saw a "gaping wound at the right rear of the president's head".

Can you explain why you have attributed to Dino all these things that he never said?
I would be really interested to know how the mind of an Altfan works.
Is it that you don't have a clue about this subject and are just making things up?
Is it that you are deliberately presenting "fake news"?
What is it?
« Last Edit: October 30, 2023, 10:25:26 AM by Dan O'meara »

Offline Della Cross

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 19
Re: Josiah Thompson - Who Was the Umbrella Man?
« Reply #38 on: October 31, 2023, 04:52:23 AM »
In the Youtube video "The Zapruder Film Mystery," NPIC photo analyst Dino Brugioni is interviewed by Doug Horne.  Brugioni states clearly that he saw the the fully developed 8 mm. Z film on SaPersonay night, November 23, 1963, when it was brought to the NPIC lab in Washington DC by two Secret Service agents, who had just come from the airport. The wanted Brugioni to make briefing boards from pix taken from the film. The lab did not have an 8 mm. projector, but one was found. Brugioni says the first time he and the agents saw the Z film "it caught us all by surprise... (The surprise) was to see portions of Kennedy's head fly into the air." There was no doubt in Brugioni's mind that he was watching the original Z film. He states that never again after that night did he see the Z film look the way it did in the lab. Later in the interview, he discusses the head wound again, and says he saw a piece of JFK's skull "three or four feet from his head."  Question:  "Up in the air?"  Brugioni:   "Yes."   Still later, Brugioni says, "Once I saw that part of the head go into the air, I knew this was sensitive material." That head shot scene with the piece of skull flying into the air is not on the Z film we see today. At the end of the interview, Horne states that if one aspect of the original Z film has been altered, then the whole film is suspect. I agree with that.   

   

Online Royell Storing

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2883
Re: Josiah Thompson - Who Was the Umbrella Man?
« Reply #39 on: October 31, 2023, 06:09:57 AM »
In the Youtube video "The Zapruder Film Mystery," NPIC photo analyst Dino Brugioni is interviewed by Doug Horne.  Brugioni states clearly that he saw the the fully developed 8 mm. Z film on SaPersonay night, November 23, 1963, when it was brought to the NPIC lab in Washington DC by two Secret Service agents, who had just come from the airport. The wanted Brugioni to make briefing boards from pix taken from the film. The lab did not have an 8 mm. projector, but one was found. Brugioni says the first time he and the agents saw the Z film "it caught us all by surprise... (The surprise) was to see portions of Kennedy's head fly into the air." There was no doubt in Brugioni's mind that he was watching the original Z film. He states that never again after that night did he see the Z film look the way it did in the lab. Later in the interview, he discusses the head wound again, and says he saw a piece of JFK's skull "three or four feet from his head."  Question:  "Up in the air?"  Brugioni:   "Yes."   Still later, Brugioni says, "Once I saw that part of the head go into the air, I knew this was sensitive material." That head shot scene with the piece of skull flying into the air is not on the Z film we see today. At the end of the interview, Horne states that if one aspect of the original Z film has been altered, then the whole film is suspect. I agree with that.   

   

       DELLA - With respect to your agreeing with Doug Horne's, "if one aspect of the original Z film has been altered, then the whole film is suspect", I would expand this philosophy to include Warren Commission and HSCA Testimony. The HSCA SEALED the sworn Testimony of JFK White House Photographer Robert L. Knudsen. Knudsen's HSCA testimony detailed his having seen JFK Autopsy Photo(s) showing PROBES in the body of JFK that were running from Front-to-Back. Knudsen was in charge of the developing of the JFK Autopsy Photos the morning following the autopsy. He was highly respected in the White House dating back to Eisenhower, and held a high security clearance. The ARRB in late 1990 discovered that Knudsen's HSCA testimony had been sealed for roughly 20 years and therefore was completely unknown to the public. The ARRB got Knudsen's "probe(s)" testimony unsealed, and added it to the public record. Point is, if the powers that be can completely seal the testimony of a highly respected individual such as Knudsen, who knows what other highly credible sources have also had their JFK Assassination testimony expunged from the public record?     

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Josiah Thompson - Who Was the Umbrella Man?
« Reply #39 on: October 31, 2023, 06:09:57 AM »