Stop With The Limo Stop

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

Marjan, I have actually been working on some of these measurements and calculations for a long time. I actually did extensive work several years ago and I am just now finding time to work on it some more and coax the data to be presentable in an understandable and scientific way. I want to publish the data along with ways in which someone can repeat it, verify it, scrutinize it, and critique it.

I can share some of it with you on a private basis, but I am not ready to do so openly until I'm ready. It answers this and several other things. But spoiler alert: the evidence shows the limo slows and that the Zapruder film appears to be consistent with a real, uncut film, at least in the portions I can study.

This invitation is open to anyone on the forum who wants to see the data rather than some guessing and supposition.

I am primarily researching an as-yet unknown feature of the Zapruder film, but one of the side benefits is that is can be used to calculate the limo motion pretty accurately ... or particularly, find anomalies in the motion of the limo. It could, conceivably, find anomalies in the Z-film itself, if there are any.

My research is somewhat like the work of Alvarez on the limo, but, unlike him, I show my work ... and, as other researchers have postulated, he was not completely accurate. If you look at his *HSCA report, Figure 7, you can tell without processing the data that he's cooking the numbers. (Watch his inaccurate use of the word "exactly" in the same sentence as the not-so-exact "few.") The epitome of absurdity in Alvarez's work on the limo stop is his Figure 7 caption: "Individual measurements are accurate to about +/- 4 inches." Yeah, ok, whatever. Meanwhile, the same graph has "~12 mph" and "~10 feet" which sounds pretty approximate! What hubris. He did not do anywhere near the research to come up with +/- 4 inch accuracy. That's ridiculous.

See A physicist examines the Kennedy assassination film (from LBL) as it is better than HSCA's copy.

https://imgur.com/a/rOXS4zd

I had a look at the Alvaraz graph showing the jfklimo braking at Z300. My own measurements of the limo's motion (frame by frame from Z270 to Z312)(relative to gawkers) duznt show any obvious hard braking at any frame. I firstly measured Davidson's frames, but i then realized that this was fraught (Davison's frames are altered), & i then measured my own file of (original) Zapruder frames (which as i said contradicts Alvaraz) (ie there was no hard braking).
Anyhow, braking at Z300 duznt do the trick. Hickey's say shot-5 was at say Z312. Shot-4 was at Z309.25. Shot-3 was at Z306.50. Shot-2 was at Z303.75. Shot-1 was at Z301.00. Based on 400 rpm, & 18.3 fps.
Hickey picked the AR15 up off the floor, muzzle facing say left, & Hickey then raized the AR15 up over O'Donnell's head, swinging it around to his right, while trying to stand up (he had been half sitting half standing hi up on 2 leather cases positioned on the back seat), while shuffling to his right to get clear of O'Donnell's seat, to enable Hickey to turn around to his right-rear & look for Oswald & to return fire. During this time Hickey accidentally squeezed the trigger, starting an auto-burst of say 4 or 5 shots. The squeeze was probably due to falling forward. The falling was probably due to Kinney braking, together with Elm St having a grade of more than 3 deg.
So, Kinney's braking (of Queen Mary) might have been say 0.22 sec before Z301.00, which is 4 frames, which is Z297.00.
And Greer's braking in the jfklimo might have been say 0.22 sec before Z297.00, which is Z293.00.
So, the jfklimo braking at Z300 duznt do the trick. But, if Hickey fired only 4 shots, then the Z293.00 becomes Z295.75.
And, if the AR15-601  fired at 800 rpm instead of my estimate of 400 rpm, then the Z295.75 becomes Z299.86, which is close to Alvaraz's Z300. Some modern AR15s can fire at 1200 rpm i think.
Anyhow, Kinney might have braked as a reaction to seeing Greer touching his brakes (ie brake lights).
Or, Hickey might have fallen forward due to some imbalance, not due to any braking.
Or, Hickey might have accidentally fired due to butterfingers, not due to any falling.
If your measurements show that the jfklimo braked then that would be of interest to me.

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

One of the many ludicrous claims made by Alteration Fantasists [Altfans] is that the Presidential limo came to a complete stop around the time of the head shot and, because the Z-film doesn't show this limo stop, it must be concluded that the film was altered. Most go a little bit further, insisting the Z-film doesn't even show the limo slowing down, let alone coming to a stop:

"...the fact that in the film (contrary to eyewitness testimony) JFK’s limousine does not stop or reduce speed during the assassination. At the time of the assassination, in the Zapruder film, JFK’s limousine glides forward at a steady (and unusually low) speed of about 11 mph; the car definitely does not stop or slow down."
                                                                                                                   ["Grassy Knoll Shots? Limousine Slowdown?",  Donald E. Wilkes Jr]

It is difficult to know what word to use to describe this claim - "Mistaken" would be kind, "Fraudulent" seems a bit harsh. Whatever the case, it's completely wrong and Wilkes Jr goes on to build his case on the back of this error. In mitigation it must be conceded that the radical deceleration of the limo shown in the Z-film isn't readily apparent. This is due to the background having few visual cues at the moment of the head shot. In the version of the Z-film below, Ant Davison has created a new way of looking at the Z-film by keeping all the visual information in place to create a backdrop against which we can clearly see the movement of the limo relative to it's surroundings.
In this version it is absolutely clear that just before the head shot the limo radically decelerates to almost walking pace:

This deceleration of the limo is an obvious fact. It is shown in the Z-film, the Nix film, the Muchmore film and the Bronson film. It is the reason the distance between the limo and the follow-up car rapidly diminishes, it is the reason the outriders suddenly catch up with the limo, it is the reason Hill can make the gap.
The likes of Wilkes and his Altfan buddies claiming the Z-film doesn't show this deceleration is a case of incredibly poor research and the arguments for alteration built on this non-observation are totally bogus.
Some of the outriders are said to have reported that the limo came to a complete stop for a brief second. The fact is that it was the outriders themselves who came to a complete stop as they suddenly caught up with the decelerating limo. This may have added to the impression that the whole motorcade had come to a brief halt and having JFK's head explode a matter of feet away may have also been distracting.

For those Altfans who believe the Z-film was altered to remove a complete limo stop, however brief, there are two seeming impossibilities:
1) The Nix, Muchmore and Bronson films must be similarly altered.
2) In all these films we see Jackie and the occupants of the limo constantly moving, Hill racing toward the limo, the outriders, the follow-up vehicle and the people stood on Elm Street watching the motorcade all moving at all times. For a limo stop to be removed all of these people must "freeze" for the amount of time removed to delete a limo stop. Everyone must stop moving at exactly the same moment and resume movement at exactly the same moment. In their childish beliefs, Altfans convince themselves it's just a matter of dealing with the movement of the limo. Everything else can be overlooked!

The limo slowed to almost walking pace. It didn't stop. And the Z-film most ceratinly wasn't altered in order to hide something that never even happened.

Re the jfklimo stopping. U mentioned that the jfklimo stopped or allmost stopped just before the headshot.
My measurements show no appreciable slowing from Z270 to Z312.
I think that u meant to refer to a much later time, well after the headshot, ie at about when Hill jumped onto the limo.

[Mitch Todd]

Marjan, I have actually been working on some of these measurements and calculations for a long time. I actually did extensive work several years ago and I am just now finding time to work on it some more and coax the data to be presentable in an understandable and scientific way. I want to publish the data along with ways in which someone can repeat it, verify it, scrutinize it, and critique it.

I can share some of it with you on a private basis, but I am not ready to do so openly until I'm ready. It answers this and several other things. But spoiler alert: the evidence shows the limo slows and that the Zapruder film appears to be consistent with a real, uncut film, at least in the portions I can study.

This invitation is open to anyone on the forum who wants to see the data rather than some guessing and supposition.

I am primarily researching an as-yet unknown feature of the Zapruder film, but one of the side benefits is that is can be used to calculate the limo motion pretty accurately ... or particularly, find anomalies in the motion of the limo. It could, conceivably, find anomalies in the Z-film itself, if there are any.

My research is somewhat like the work of Alvarez on the limo, but, unlike him, I show my work ... and, as other researchers have postulated, he was not completely accurate. If you look at his *HSCA report, Figure 7, you can tell without processing the data that he's cooking the numbers. (Watch his inaccurate use of the word "exactly" in the same sentence as the not-so-exact "few.") The epitome of absurdity in Alvarez's work on the limo stop is his Figure 7 caption: "Individual measurements are accurate to about +/- 4 inches." Yeah, ok, whatever. Meanwhile, the same graph has "~12 mph" and "~10 feet" which sounds pretty approximate! What hubris. He did not do anywhere near the research to come up with +/- 4 inch accuracy. That's ridiculous.

See A physicist examines the Kennedy assassination film (from LBL) as it is better than HSCA's copy.

https://imgur.com/a/rOXS4zd

At 12 mph, the limousine is  moving at about 0.96 feet per z-film frame. Given that, measuring the limo's progress relative to the last frame is doable at +/-4 inches uncertainty. It also represents an uncertainty of 33% of the expected delta-x value, which is pretty big. A lot of people read Alvarez's paper, but do not consider how much uncertainty there is. It doesn't affect longer-term averages, but does affect frame-to-frame and other short term calculations quite a bit.

[Chris Davidson]

I firstly measured Davidson's frames, but i then realized that this was fraught (Davidson's frames are altered)

Davison doesn't equal Davidson.

Understand, I in stine

[Michael Welch]

Davison doesn't equal Davidson.

Understand, I in stine

Hi Chris, Sorry, this is my mistake too! Thank you for correcting us! With Much Gratitude and Admiration, Sincerely yours, Michael

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

Davison doesn't equal Davidson.

Understand, I in stine

Thanx for that, have fixed.
I wish to point out to all that the Z film starts at Z133, & Oswald's first shot might have been as early as pseudo Z103 (ie when jfk was on the line of the Carcano & the overhead signals).
Alltho Wilkes & others reckon that some early Z frames were deleted by ?
Clearly the jfklimo duznt stop, from Z133 to when it enters the TUP.
But, we know that the jfklimo stops for about 30 seconds on the on-ramp after it passes under the Stemmons Fwy (as per Patrolman Brown on the rail bridge)(& as per Hoffman on Stemmons).

[Dan O'meara]

Re the jfklimo stopping. U mentioned that the jfklimo stopped or allmost stopped just before the headshot.
My measurements show no appreciable slowing from Z270 to Z312.
I think that u meant to refer to a much later time, well after the headshot, ie at about when Hill jumped onto the limo.

You couldn't be more wrong.
A consistent feature of your work.

[John Mytton]

One of the many ludicrous claims made by Alteration Fantasists [Altfans] is that the Presidential limo came to a complete stop around the time of the head shot and, because the Z-film doesn't show this limo stop, it must be concluded that the film was altered. Most go a little bit further, insisting the Z-film doesn't even show the limo slowing down, let alone coming to a stop:

"...the fact that in the film (contrary to eyewitness testimony) JFK’s limousine does not stop or reduce speed during the assassination. At the time of the assassination, in the Zapruder film, JFK’s limousine glides forward at a steady (and unusually low) speed of about 11 mph; the car definitely does not stop or slow down."
                                                                                                                   ["Grassy Knoll Shots? Limousine Slowdown?",  Donald E. Wilkes Jr]

It is difficult to know what word to use to describe this claim - "Mistaken" would be kind, "Fraudulent" seems a bit harsh. Whatever the case, it's completely wrong and Wilkes Jr goes on to build his case on the back of this error. In mitigation it must be conceded that the radical deceleration of the limo shown in the Z-film isn't readily apparent. This is due to the background having few visual cues at the moment of the head shot. In the version of the Z-film below, Ant Davison has created a new way of looking at the Z-film by keeping all the visual information in place to create a backdrop against which we can clearly see the movement of the limo relative to it's surroundings.
In this version it is absolutely clear that just before the head shot the limo radically decelerates to almost walking pace:

This deceleration of the limo is an obvious fact. It is shown in the Z-film, the Nix film, the Muchmore film and the Bronson film. It is the reason the distance between the limo and the follow-up car rapidly diminishes, it is the reason the outriders suddenly catch up with the limo, it is the reason Hill can make the gap.
The likes of Wilkes and his Altfan buddies claiming the Z-film doesn't show this deceleration is a case of incredibly poor research and the arguments for alteration built on this non-observation are totally bogus.
Some of the outriders are said to have reported that the limo came to a complete stop for a brief second. The fact is that it was the outriders themselves who came to a complete stop as they suddenly caught up with the decelerating limo. This may have added to the impression that the whole motorcade had come to a brief halt and having JFK's head explode a matter of feet away may have also been distracting.

For those Altfans who believe the Z-film was altered to remove a complete limo stop, however brief, there are two seeming impossibilities:
1) The Nix, Muchmore and Bronson films must be similarly altered.
2) In all these films we see Jackie and the occupants of the limo constantly moving, Hill racing toward the limo, the outriders, the follow-up vehicle and the people stood on Elm Street watching the motorcade all moving at all times. For a limo stop to be removed all of these people must "freeze" for the amount of time removed to delete a limo stop. Everyone must stop moving at exactly the same moment and resume movement at exactly the same moment. In their childish beliefs, Altfans convince themselves it's just a matter of dealing with the movement of the limo. Everything else can be overlooked!

The limo slowed to almost walking pace. It didn't stop. And the Z-film most ceratinly wasn't altered in order to hide something that never even happened.

Besides the graphic head shot, Life Magazine a week later published a number of key frames which fit perfectly into the Zapruder Film. So allowing for printing and distribution of the magazine, this gives a window of only a few days for any alterations.



JohnM