Users Currently Browsing This Topic:
0 Members

Author Topic: Oswald's Escape Route Time Trial  (Read 22241 times)

Offline Fergus O'Brien

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 256
Re: Oswald's Escape Route Time Trial
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2023, 12:19:15 PM »
Advertisement
I think Oswald got to the rooming house between 12:58 and 1:00

Earlene Roberts said that she was trying to get the television to work, to watch the 1:00 news, when Oswald walked in, so you're estimation may well be correct.

and was back in his room just long enough to grab a jacket before hurrying out the door,

I'm not so sure about this, because Oswald told investigators that he changed clothes, which would make sense after having worked in a dusty warehouse.


hi martin i myself had a job not unlike oswalds job at the depository . when you deal all day handling boxes and packages of books , magazines , newspapers with print ink on them believe me your hands and clothes show clear signs of it .i am sure our lone nut advocate friends here will try to argue that oswald filled no orders that day but his fellow workers said he did .but i must assume that as he went home thursday night to marina that the clothes he wore on friday morning were the same clothes he wore to work on thursday .so they would be dirty believe me .

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Oswald's Escape Route Time Trial
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2023, 12:19:15 PM »


Online Richard Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5290
Re: Oswald's Escape Route Time Trial
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2023, 03:32:47 PM »
hi martin i myself had a job not unlike oswalds job at the depository . when you deal all day handling boxes and packages of books , magazines , newspapers with print ink on them believe me your hands and clothes show clear signs of it .i am sure our lone nut advocate friends here will try to argue that oswald filled no orders that day but his fellow workers said he did .but i must assume that as he went home thursday night to marina that the clothes he wore on friday morning were the same clothes he wore to work on thursday .so they would be dirty believe me .

Oswald was suddenly concerned with wearing "dirty clothes" that day?  He didn't have a problem wearing them before he fled the assassination.  He put them on that morning expecting to wear them for the entire day unless he knew that he would be assassinating the president and knocking off early for the movies. 

Offline Martin Weidmann

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7444
Re: Oswald's Escape Route Time Trial
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2023, 04:39:14 PM »
hi martin i myself had a job not unlike oswalds job at the depository . when you deal all day handling boxes and packages of books , magazines , newspapers with print ink on them believe me your hands and clothes show clear signs of it .i am sure our lone nut advocate friends here will try to argue that oswald filled no orders that day but his fellow workers said he did .but i must assume that as he went home thursday night to marina that the clothes he wore on friday morning were the same clothes he wore to work on thursday .so they would be dirty believe me .

i must assume that as he went home thursday night to marina that the clothes he wore on friday morning were the same clothes he wore to work on thursday

Why must you assume that? Marina did his washing, so it's not unlikely some of his clothes were at Ruth Paine's house.


Oswald was suddenly concerned with wearing "dirty clothes" that day?  He didn't have a problem wearing them before he fled the assassination.  He put them on that morning expecting to wear them for the entire day unless he knew that he would be assassinating the president and knocking off early for the movies.

Another pointless reply from a guy who constantly talks as if he knows exactly what Oswald was thinking.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Oswald's Escape Route Time Trial
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2023, 04:39:14 PM »


Offline Martin Weidmann

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7444
Re: Oswald's Escape Route Time Trial
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2023, 05:30:37 PM »
During Oswald's alleged "escape route" he is supposed to have worn a light gray jacket, which was later found on a car at a car park near Jefferson. That, at least, is the official narrative.

However, in his testimony, Wesley Buell Frazier saw Oswald wearing a jacket which he described as "gray, more or less flannel, wool-looking"

Mr. BALL - On that day you did notice one article of clothing, that is, he had a jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What color was the jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - It was a gray, more or less flannel, wool-looking type of jacket that I had seen him wear and that is the type of jacket he had on that morning.
Mr. BALL - Did it have a zipper on it?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; it was one of the zipper types.

Frazier was adamant that it wasn't CE 163, which he claimed he had never seen before.

As Marina confirmed that Oswald had only two jackets, being CE 162 and CE 163, and Frazier clearly dismissed CE 163, it is fair to assume that Frazier did indeed see Oswald wear CE 162 to Irving on Thursday evening. It's either that, or Marina was wrong and Oswald did in fact have three jackets instead of two.

But when asked in her testimony, Marina identified CE 162 as the gray jacket that Lee was wearing when he arrived in Irving.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any of these clothes that your husband was wearing when he came home Thursday night, November 21, 1963?
Mrs. OSWALD. On Thursday I think he wore this shirt.
Mr. RANKIN. Is that Exhibit 150?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember anything else he was wearing at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. It seems he had that jacket, also.
Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 162?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And the pants, Exhibit 157?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. But I am not sure. This is as much as I can remember.

So, now we have two people who, although not 100% sure, say they saw Oswald wearing CE 162 in Irving on Thursday evening.

The only person who saw Oswald leaving the roominghouse on Friday afternoon was Earlene Roberts. She said that Oswald was wearing a jacket but failed to identify CE 162.

Mr. BALL. You say he put on a separate jacket?
Mrs. ROBERTS. A jacket.
Mr. BALL. I'll show you this jacket which is Commission Exhibit 162---have you ever seen this jacket before?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, maybe I have, but I don't remember it. It seems like the one he put on was darker than that. Now, I won't be sure, because I really don't know, but is that a zipper jacket?
Mr. BALL. Yes---it has a zipper down the front.
Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, maybe it was.
Mr. BALL. It was a zippered jacket, was it?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; it was a zipper jacket. How come me to remember it, he was zipping it up as he went out the door.

The official narrative tells us that Oswald's dark-gray jacket CE 163 was later found at the TSBD, which justifies the assumption that he must have worn that jacket to work on Friday 11/22/63. This in turn means of course that he must have left his gray jacket CE 162 in Irving.

So, the crucial question to answer is; how did a jacket (CE 162) that was last seen in Irving on Thursday evening end up at the roominghouse on Friday afternoon, for Oswald to put on, or, alternatively, how did it it end up being presented by Captain Westbrook at the evidence room as the jacket found under a parked car that was earlier described as being white and why did that gray jacket have initials on it from police officers who were no where near the car park where the jacket allegedly was found?
« Last Edit: November 28, 2023, 06:16:36 PM by Martin Weidmann »

Offline John Iacoletti

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10815
Re: Oswald's Escape Route Time Trial
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2023, 05:54:46 AM »
Benavides did not wait a few minutes. Callaway was at the car dealership when he heard the shots. He saw a man running down Patton holding a revolver. After the man passed him, he ran to 10th streets. By the time he got there, which didn't take more than three minutes, Benavides had already made his failed attempt on the radio and Bowley was already on the scene and had talked to the DPD dispatcher for 48 seconds (as per the actual recording). There simply wasn't any time for Benavides to have stayed in his car for minutes.

Except Callaway didn’t say how long it was before he ran up to 10th. He supposedly watched the man go down to Jefferson and turn the corner first. Also, how can you tell by any of the radio recordings when Callaway got there, or how much time had elapsed since the shots?

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Oswald's Escape Route Time Trial
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2023, 05:54:46 AM »


Offline John Iacoletti

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10815
Re: Oswald's Escape Route Time Trial
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2023, 05:56:01 AM »
Oswald was suddenly concerned with wearing "dirty clothes" that day?  He didn't have a problem wearing them before he fled the assassination.

“Fled the assassination”. LOL.

Offline Martin Weidmann

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7444
Re: Oswald's Escape Route Time Trial
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2023, 09:56:43 AM »
Except Callaway didn’t say how long it was before he ran up to 10th. He supposedly watched the man go down to Jefferson and turn the corner first. Also, how can you tell by any of the radio recordings when Callaway got there, or how much time had elapsed since the shots?

Except Callaway didn’t say how long it was before he ran up to 10th.

After hearing the shots, you mean? True, he did not say specifically, but from his testimony it becomes clear that he started running towards 10th street after he watched the man with the revolver was on West-Jefferson.

Mr. DULLES. May I ask what course he was taking when you last saw him?
Mr. CALLAWAY. He was going west on Jefferson Street.
Mr. DULLES. West on Jefferson Street?
Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you do?
Mr. CALLAWAY. I hollered to this guy behind--B. D. Searcy.
Mr. BALL. What did you say to Mr. Searcy?
Mr. CALLAWAY. I told him to keep an eye on that guy, I says, "Keep an eye on that guy, follow him. I am going to go down there and see what is going on." So I ran, a good hard run, from here down around the corner.
Mr. BALL. 10th and Patton?


As the distance the man with the revolver had to run was one block (between 10th street and Jefferson) and Callaway's was less than a block, it is fair (IMO) to assume that it took less than 3 minutes. Considering the fact that Callaway said in his testimony that he ran, ,not only to 10th street, but also to the location where he was when he saw the man with the revolver, it seems unlikely to me that Callaway would have wasted much time between the two runs.

Mr. BALL. And when you heard the shots, what did you do?
Mr. CALLAWAY. I just hurried--I don't know whether I really ran or not.
But I hurried off the side of this porch and came to this position.


Is it a slam dunk? No of course not. One can also argue that Callaway just stood there for several minutes before he ran to 10th street, but that seems as unlikely to me as him drinking a coffee with his mates between the two runs.


Also, how can you tell by any of the radio recordings when Callaway got there, or how much time had elapsed since the shots?

You can't. All you can conclude from the radio recording is that Bowley's call took 48 seconds. There are only two things you can say; (1) when Callaway arrived at the scene Bowley had already finished his call and (2) the ambulance arrived at the scene when Callaway was making his call. Somewhere inbetween these two events Callaway must have arrived at the scene.


Offline Fergus O'Brien

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 256
Re: Oswald's Escape Route Time Trial
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2023, 12:00:09 PM »
Oswald was suddenly concerned with wearing "dirty clothes" that day?  He didn't have a problem wearing them before he fled the assassination.  He put them on that morning expecting to wear them for the entire day unless he knew that he would be assassinating the president and knocking off early for the movies.

what his concerns may or may not have been are well in main unknown to us , because in the murder case of the century the police , fbi etc ensured that we got to hear zero of what oswald said behind closed doors . i know what they said he told them , but that is not good enough . we know for sure what he said when he was moved around the police station and in front of the media .

but the fact is he was noted in interrogation notes saying he changed his shirt and slacks , as i have said i can personally vouch for how dirty his job would have made him .you not only have print ink but dust and dirt also .now here is the thing . if i was oswald , i had just shot two men , a president and a cop . and i feared evidence such as GSR was on my clothing which i had taken off , would i then be stupid enough to tell the cops i had taken off those clothes and further told them where they could find them ? . not a chance .if they believed the clothing i was wearing were the clothes i wore all day i would let them believe that and say nothing .

i of course understand why lone nut advocates dont want oswald to have changed his shirt and slacks . because if he did indeed change his shirt at his rooming house well it cant have been the shirt he wore at 12.30 in the depository .so there then can be zero evidence of any crime to be found on that shirt .and mrs bledoe cant possibly have seen that shirt on the bus at 12.40pm . oswald changing his slacks and shirt create problems that LN simply prefer to ignore .


JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Oswald's Escape Route Time Trial
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2023, 12:00:09 PM »