When Was JBC Hit?

[Dan O'meara]

Mrs. Kennedy's job was to acknowledge the crowd and at that point in time the majority of the crowd from her position was behind her husband.



Another factor to consider is after hearing a shot at approximately Z160, Connally quickly turns to the right.



Mr. SPECTER. As the automobile turned left onto Elm from Houston, what did occur there, Governor?
Governor CONNALLY. We had--we had gone, I guess, 150 feet, maybe 200 feet, I don't recall how far it was, heading down to get on the freeway, the Stemmons Freeway, to go out to the hall where we were going to have lunch and, as I say, the crowds had begun to thin, and we could--I was anticipating that we were going to be at the hall in approximately 5 minutes from the time we turned on Elm Street.
We had just made the turn, well, when I heard what I thought was a shot. I heard this noise which I immediately took to be a rifle shot. I instinctively turned to my right because the sound appeared to come from over my right shoulder, so I turned to look back over my right shoulder,...

Rosemary Willis slows down after hearing a shot at approximately Z160



At circa Zapruder film frames 164-171 (hereafter "Z-164-171"), she starts to slow down, then she stops running and, simultaneous with her slowing/stopping, she slightly turns her level-facing head to end up looking towards the southeast corner of the Texas School Book Depository. Willis stated she stopped because she heard a loud noise that attracted her attention.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosemary_Willis

JohnM

There is an overwhelming amount of evidence absolutely refuting a first shot as early as the z160's that is covered in "The First Shot" thread.
Rosemary Willis??
Really??
Connally turns his head, therefore there was a shot??
Really??
You seem to have missed that JFK and Jackie also turn their heads to the right at around the same time. Are they all responding to the sound of a shot?
Or are they responding to Mary Woodward and her colleagues shouting at them to turn their way?

Head turns and Rosemary Willis...

[John Mytton]

There is an overwhelming amount of evidence absolutely refuting a first shot as early as the z160's that is covered in "The First Shot" thread.
Rosemary Willis??
Really??
Connally turns his head, therefore there was a shot??
Really??
You seem to have missed that JFK and Jackie also turn their heads to the right at around the same time. Are they all responding to the sound of a shot?
Or are they responding to Mary Woodward and her colleagues shouting at them to turn their way?

Head turns and Rosemary Willis...

You also missed the most reliable piece of evidence of an earlier shot, when Zapruder who was continuously filming while all three shots rang out makes three unique vertical reactions!!!

Zapruder up till and including the headshot only makes three startled vertical jumps while filming, the head shot at Z313, the shot when the Limo emerges from behind the sign and the earlier shot just before Rosemary Willis slows and turns when she says she heard a shot and Connally's quick head turn as confirmed by his own words, testimony which you conveniently ignored. -smug emoji-



Btw it took time for the gun shot sounds to reach Zapruder hence the slight delay in his reactions.

JohnM

[Dan O'meara]

Just to emphasise how silly the Rosemary Willis argument is.
Altgens6 shows Ready, Landis and Hickey all looking over their right shoulders, back towards the TSBD building.
This picture is thought to be the equivalent of z255:




Landis - "I heard what sounded like the report of a high-powered rifle from behind me, over my right shoulder...", "My first glance was at the President, as I was practically looking in his direction anyway...", "I immediately returned my gaze, over my right shoulder."

Ready - "I heard what appeared to be fire crackers going off from my position. I immediately turned to my right rear trying to locate the source but was not able to determine the exact location."

Hickey - "I heard what seemed to me that a firecracker exploded to the right and rear. I stood partially up and turned to the rear to see if I could observe anything. "

All three describe the situation recorded in Altgen 6, their immediate response to the first shot.
However, when we look at the Z-film, we can see Rosemary Willis running along side the motorcade at the same time we can see the car full of Secret Service agents. We are being asked to believe that the little girl is reacting to the first shot when a car full of Secret Service agents make no meaningful reaction:



Altgens 6 corroborates the statements of the three agents, that they immediately look to their right rear, towards the TSBD building, as a result of the first shot. This shot was described as "ear-splitting" and an "explosion". It was heard all over Dealey Plaza.
The Rosemary Willis argument is a really desperate attempt to have an early first shot.
The Head Turn argument is equally as desperate. It's a motorcade, of course the heads of the limo occupants are turning.

[Dan O'meara]

You also missed the most reliable piece of evidence of an earlier shot, when Zapruder who was continuously filming while all three shots rang out makes three unique vertical reactions!!!

Zapruder up till and including the headshot only makes three startled vertical jumps while filming, the head shot at Z313, the shot when the Limo emerges from behind the sign and the earlier shot just before Rosemary Willis slows and turns when she says she heard a shot and Connally's quick head turn as confirmed by his own words, testimony which you conveniently ignored. -smug emoji-



Btw it took time for the gun shot sounds to reach Zapruder hence the slight delay in his reactions.

JohnM

It's not reliable at all.
Marilyn Sitzman describes the shots as not being that loud. She describes the smashing of the Coke bottle as being far louder.
There is no reason to believe the shots were loud enough to cause a startle effect.

Thompson: Could I ask you something about your gaze and actions immediately after the head shot? On the trailer of Mr. Zapruder's film, we noticed that he turned to his right and photographed the general area of the stockade fence, the trees and the stockade fence and that particular area. Did you turn in that direction after the head shot too?
Sitzman: In a way, I have a feeling this: He might have heard the kids throw down the coke bottles and heard that crash or else maybe it was just what he saw could have caused a reaction where he'd jump, but I don't think it was the sound of bullets, because I didn't jump.

[John Mytton]

It's not reliable at all.
Marilyn Sitzman describes the shots as sounding really distant. She describes the smashing of the Coke bottle as being far louder.
There is no reason to believe the shots were loud enough to cause a startle effect.

You're all over the place Dan, you show three Agents in Altgens6 who all look over their right shoulders looking for a sniper and who were all obviously at that point in time reacting to Kennedy showing signs of being shot and one describes the sounds at that later time in the plural "fireworks"!
Zapruder who was filming at a point not that much further away would have heard the same sounds or do you think that an additional ten or twenty yards would muffle the sounds?



JohnM

[John Mytton]

It's not reliable at all.
Marilyn Sitzman describes the shots as not being that loud. She describes the smashing of the Coke bottle as being far louder.
There is no reason to believe the shots were loud enough to cause a startle effect.

Thompson: Could I ask you something about your gaze and actions immediately after the head shot? On the trailer of Mr. Zapruder's film, we noticed that he turned to his right and photographed the general area of the stockade fence, the trees and the stockade fence and that particular area. Did you turn in that direction after the head shot too?
Sitzman: In a way, I have a feeling this: He might have heard the kids throw down the coke bottles and heard that crash or else maybe it was just what he saw could have caused a reaction where he'd jump, but I don't think it was the sound of bullets, because I didn't jump.

Also to further reinforce the Zapruder involuntary camera jiggle, in 1967 CBSNEWS TV carried out a similar recreation and the camera operators who were a similar distance away as Zapruder from the sniper's nest also shows an involuntary jiggle effect at the time of the shots.



The cameramen were instructed to hold the cameras steady yet an involuntary vertical jiggle is clear.



Btw you keep ignoring that Zapruder shows the same type of violent vertical jerk at the provable shots at Z312/313 and when Connally and Kennedy are hit simultaneously which makes your weak rebuttal pointless.

JohnM

[Jack Nessan]

Zapruder is a two shot witness. How can Zapruder have a startle reaction to a shot he never heard and he states he never heard. This is an example of the WC and HSCA conclusions indicating “Medias Influence” about inflating the number of shots– He is being asked about a shot he never heard nor did he know anything about this phantom shot until he was told about it. 

I believe jiggle analysis only showed a strong reaction twice. Shots one and two that he describes in detail.

ZAPRUDER - Well, as the car came in line almost--I believe it was almost in line. I was standing up here and I was shooting through a telephoto lens, which is a zoom lens and as it reached about--I imagine it was around here--I heard the first shot and I saw the President lean over and grab himself like this (holding his left chest area).
Mr. LIEBELER - Grab himself on the front of his chest?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - Right---something like that. In other words, he was sitting like this and waving and then after the shot he just went like that.
Mr. LIEBELER - He was sitting upright in the car and you heard the shot and you saw the President slump over?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - Leaning--leaning toward the side of Jacqueline. For a moment I thought it was, you know, like you say, "Oh, he got me," when you hear a shot--you've heard these expressions and then I saw---I don't believe the President is going to make jokes like this, but before I had a chance to organize my mind, I heard a second shot and then I saw his head opened up and the blood and everything came out and I started--I can hardly talk about it [ the witness crying].

 
Mr. LIEBELER - Nobody should ever be ashamed of feeling that way, Mr. Zapruder. I feel the same way myself. It was a terrible thing.
Let me go back now for just a moment and ask you how many shots you heard altogether.
Mr. ZAPRUDER - I thought I heard two, it could be three, because to my estimation I thought he was hit on the second--I really don't know. The whole thing that has been transpiring--it was very upsetting and as you see I got a little better all the time and this came up again and it to me looked like the second shot, but I don't know. I never even heard a third shot.
Mr. LIEBELER - You didn't hear any shot after you saw him hit?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - I heard the second--after the first shot--I saw him leaning over and after the second shot--it's possible after what I saw, you know, then I started yelling, "They killed him,

[John Mytton]

Zapruder is a two shot witness. How can Zapruder have a startle reaction to a shot he never heard and he states he never heard. This is an example of the WC and HSCA conclusions indicating “Medias Influence” about inflating the number of shots– He is being asked about a shot he never heard nor did he know anything about this phantom shot until he was told about it. 

I believe jiggle analysis only showed a strong reaction twice. Shots one and two that he describes in detail.

ZAPRUDER - Well, as the car came in line almost--I believe it was almost in line. I was standing up here and I was shooting through a telephoto lens, which is a zoom lens and as it reached about--I imagine it was around here--I heard the first shot and I saw the President lean over and grab himself like this (holding his left chest area).
Mr. LIEBELER - Grab himself on the front of his chest?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - Right---something like that. In other words, he was sitting like this and waving and then after the shot he just went like that.
Mr. LIEBELER - He was sitting upright in the car and you heard the shot and you saw the President slump over?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - Leaning--leaning toward the side of Jacqueline. For a moment I thought it was, you know, like you say, "Oh, he got me," when you hear a shot--you've heard these expressions and then I saw---I don't believe the President is going to make jokes like this, but before I had a chance to organize my mind, I heard a second shot and then I saw his head opened up and the blood and everything came out and I started--I can hardly talk about it [ the witness crying].

 
Mr. LIEBELER - Nobody should ever be ashamed of feeling that way, Mr. Zapruder. I feel the same way myself. It was a terrible thing.
Let me go back now for just a moment and ask you how many shots you heard altogether.
Mr. ZAPRUDER - I thought I heard two, it could be three, because to my estimation I thought he was hit on the second--I really don't know. The whole thing that has been transpiring--it was very upsetting and as you see I got a little better all the time and this came up again and it to me looked like the second shot, but I don't know. I never even heard a third shot.
Mr. LIEBELER - You didn't hear any shot after you saw him hit?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - I heard the second--after the first shot--I saw him leaning over and after the second shot--it's possible after what I saw, you know, then I started yelling, "They killed him,

Thanks, but under the circumstances of Zapruder concentrating on his filming, I can understand him not specifically recalling an inconsequential missed shot.

As for the two shot eyewitnesses, the number is statistically insignificant.



JohnM