When Was JBC Hit?

[Andrew Mason]

Itek isn't deliberately spreading falsehoods, you are.

Do you agree that JFK was clear of the tree branches when he was between the lamp post and the Thornton Freeway sign?

If yes, what zframe does that correspond to? If it is not between z186 and z200, tell us what is wrong with the Itek analysis.

If no, what is wrong with the Secret Service December 1963 reenactment?

Simple questions.

[Andrew Mason]

You can tell old Mason got all excited when he found the Itek Map, with its confirmation bias for his Looney Tunes Theory. He jumped all over it without one bit of scrutiny.

My comparison of the Itek Map with the Cutler Plat and Topo Map showed everything was off with the Itek Map. For example, they have the limousine centered in the roadway, but it was more towards the south of the center lane. If you draw a sight-line from Itek's location for Betzner through Itek's location for the lamppost, it is not where the lamppost dissects the pergola in the photograph. To Mason's perspective-addled eye, though, it would have been a match because he needs the Itek Map for his Theory.

I agree with you that the placement of Betzner is wrong. (Itek has Betzner where Willis was.  But they have Willis on the grass off the pavement where Croft was. It appears to me that they mistook Willis for Betzner and Croft for Willis). 

One can see in z186 that Betzner is much closer to the curb than to the north pool retaining wall  I agree with your placement.  When you plot the sightline from Betzner through the lamppost it fits perfectly to what we see in Betzner's z186 photo.



So the lamp post is in the right location on the Itek map (as we would expect since they used a surveyed map). 

The Itek map plots the position of JFK.  Since the car left tire was a foot or so inside the south lane marker and since the lanes were 12 feet wide, JFK would be about 6 feet from that lane marker ie in the middle of the middle lane, which is where he is shown. So there is nothing wrong with the placement of JFK.

I have plotted the position of JFK being in line with Zapruder and Betzner at z180.  We can see that z180 is just before JFK passes by the lamp post (red line and dark blue intersection).

Betzner’s z186 photo shows JFK in line with the middle of the Stemmons sign.  Plotting that sight line on the map, we can see that JFK was opposite the lamp post at z186 (pink line).

So at z193, JFK was 7 frames (7 feet at 1 foot/frame) past the lamp post.  At that point we can see in the Secret Service frames that he was completely in the clear from the SN 7 feet past the lamp post (z193).

Nothing wrong with the Secret Service footage. But a lot wrong with how you use a muddy copy and the whiteness of the limousine to claim the foliage didn't block the view from the SN.

Where do you put JFK when he is clear of the oak tree?  What zframe do you say that corresponds to?

[Zeon Mason]

Dan made a good point about JBCs own estimate of Z234 as the approx point at which JC felt the effect of a bullet hitting him.

It’s only 0.5 sec approx after the Z 224 abrupt forward motion of JCs right shoulder.

It’s certainly without doubt well before Z270.

There do not seem to be any other forum members who agree with Andrew that JCs reaction at Z224 was merely just from hearing a shot fired at Z195 approx.

Yet  the Willis girl stopping approx Z195 and the Betzner 186 photo and Willis Z205 photo are valid reasons to consider that the 1st  loud shot heard was at Z195-200 approx.

Is there any way to reconcile a Z195 loud shot with  a Z224 loud shot?

I don’t think so because of these reasons:

1. Altgens did not hear but one shot fired prior to his Z255 photo.
2. The gap of time between Z195 and Z224 is only approx 1.5 secs which rules out a solitary gunman using an MC rifle.

So I propose a synthesis that preserves Z224 hit theory while retaining part of Andrews Z195 theory.  It is the 2 gunman theory revisited except one gunman had a suppressed rifle. Both gunman fire from locations behind the JFK limo.

gunman  no.1 was located at the TSBD  6th floor SE window

gunman no.2 was located behind JFK limo also and possibly on the same 6th floor of TSBD but at the SW window ( observed by Rowland at 12:15, this gunman had to retreat temporarily due to presence of BRW on the floor until 12:24, but after BRW left, gunman no.2 returned to the SW window by 12:26

The sequence of shots:

1. Gunman no.1 with either the MC rifle or similar loud sounding bolt action rifle fired the 1st loud shot at z195 which missed JFK, deflected by tree foliage.

Altgens, Betzer, Willis, JC , Euins , Norman heard this shot.

2. Gunman no.2 fired the 2nd shot, a suppressed shot at Z224 which hit both JFK and JC causing the reactions of both men to appear simultaneous.

Notes here:
A. Euins may have heard this suppressed shot being as close to the TSBD as he was , but few other people did. It may explain why Euins said he heard FOUR shots!)
B. The bullet fired by gunman no.2 was perhaps not an MC bullet but was a pointed shaped bullet found on stretcher by witness. The bullet was replaced with CE 399 and a fake report attributed to FBI agent Odum claimed the witness had IDd CE 399, when In fact witness had not!
C. The suppressed shot may explain late reactions of SS agents to a loud shot at Z 195 uncertain where that shot came from, thus not looking back yet to TSBD even as late as Z 207
D. Because Z195 was a miss , actions from DC man and umbrella man just before Z224 , may have been signaling this.

3. Gunman no.1 at the TSBD 6th floor SE window had reloaded his bolt action rifle since firing 3.5 secs earlier at Z195 , he fired the 3rd shot, (which is the 2nd loud shot heard ) at Z260-Z270  which is after Z 255 thus the 2nd shot heard by Altgens only after taking his Z255 photo.
(This shot missed just high of JFK s head and struck curb near Tague.)

Notes here:

C. Harold Norman on the 5th floor TSBD just beneath gunman no.1, heard this shot as the 2nd loud shot and then Norman looked at the JFK limo and saw  that JFK had slumped to his left.
4. Gunman no.1 reloads again in approx 2.7 secs and because the limo had slowed to 8mph gunman no.1 was able to score the Z313 head shot.

Final note: the above sequence also preserves the majority heard 1……2..3 shots pattern.

[Andrew Mason]

Dan made a good point about JBCs own estimate of Z234 as the approx point at which JC felt the effect of a bullet hitting him.

It’s only 0.5 sec approx after the Z 224 abrupt forward motion of JCs right shoulder.

It’s certainly without doubt well before Z270.

There do not seem to be any other forum members who agree with Andrew that JCs reaction at Z224 was merely just from hearing a shot fired at Z195 approx.

Yet  the Willis girl stopping approx Z195 and the Betzner 186 photo and Willis Z205 photo are valid reasons to consider that the 1st  loud shot heard was at Z195-200 approx.

Is there any way to reconcile a Z195 loud shot with  a Z224 loud shot?

Zeon, if the first shot was around z195 how long do you think it would take for JBC to recognze it was a rifle shot, realize that an assassination was unfolding, complete his turn around to check on JFK and then turn back to be facing forward at z222? JBC could not have heard a shot at z195 and done all that in less than a 1.5 seconds.  So a first shot at z195 means that JBC is beginning his turn to check JFK after he emerges from behind the sign.

[Andrew Mason]

"the lanes were 12 feet wide"

Where do you get this? The lanes have equal width. On a 40' wide street with 6" wide stripes, they are 13 feet wide.

Standard lane widths in North America are 12 feet. I think you will find that the 40' width figure includes the sidewalk and curbs.  JFK appears to be in the middle of the middle lane:


He does not appear to be left of the centre of the lane.  The car was 76.8 inches wide (6'4.8")  and tires are about a foot to the right of the lane marker, so the right edge of the car is almost 7.5 feet right of the left lane marker.

My plotting says JFK arrived opposite the lamppost at Z190. This is way closer to the Cutler and Roberdeau placements than Z186. I used the line-of-travel at the center of the street. If more to the south, he would arrive later than Z190.

So show us your plotting!

As explained to you countless times, you're using a dissolved-foreground frame capture that allows the lightness of the white car to bleed through. It's a camera effect that I wonder if the human eye could duplicate. I don't think the SS intentionally wanted the foreground to dissolve; it just happened. From the SN window, Kennedy was dark-on-dark in his limousine and pictures of the foliage taken through the still cameras on Nov. 22 and during the SS reenactment show the foliage obscured the car in the Z190s.

And show us why JFK was not visible between the lamp post and Thornton sign!  You can't use the FBI May 1964 recreation because it uses he wrong car and with the tree looking very much fuller than it was in late fall 1963.

[Joe Elliott]

. . .

Yet  the Willis girl stopping approx Z195 and the Betzner 186 photo and Willis Z205 photo are valid reasons to consider that the 1st  loud shot heard was at Z195-200 approx.

. . .

Certainly Rosemary Willis coming to a stop around z195 is not evidence for a shot at z195-200. Because what is relevant is not when she came to a stop but when she started to slow down. Humans, girls, indeed objects in general cannot stop on a dime, unless they run into a brick wall. They have to decelerate, which takes some time. We have to take into account basic physics.

I have studied frames of the Zapruder film using the Costella images which anyone can find by googling 'zapruder frames'. I invite anyone to do that, to see how far she goes from z150-160, with z160-z170, with z170-z180, with z180-z190, with z190-z200. You can check her position relative to some stationary object like the standing man she disappears behind at z154. And draw a simple diagram of a large rectangle representing the man, and shorter rectangles showing Rosemary at z150, z160, z170, z180 and z190. It appears to me that she starts to slow down sometimes during the z160's and is almost stopped by z180. Between z150-z160 she travels about one and a half of her own width (from Mr. Zapruder's angle). But between z160-z170 she only travels about one width. She is clearly slowing down during the z160's.

Considering that it takes a human mind a little while to react to a loud noise and decide what to do, starting to slow down during the z160's is not at all evidence of a shot around z195-200 but is consistent with a shot at z152, which corresponds to a Zapruder camera jiggle around z157.

[Andrew Mason]

Certainly Rosemary Willis coming to a stop around z195 is not evidence for a shot at z195-200. Because what is relevant is not when she came to a stop but when she started to slow down. Humans, girls, indeed objects in general cannot stop on a dime, unless they run into a brick wall. They have to decelerate, which takes some time. We have to take into account basic physics.

It doesn't take that long to stop. Most people can go from a run to a stop in 2 or 3 steps. She may have been slowing because the President's car was pulling away and she could not longer keep up to it.  Besides, she said that when she heard the first shot she stopped and looked back at the TSBD and saw pigeons flying away from the roof. She stops at z199.  She was not turned looking at the TSBD until z204. She then turns sharply back toward the TSBD at z204-207. Pigeons didn't wait 5 seconds to take flight after hearing the shot.

[Charles Collins]

"She was not turned looking at the TSBD until z204."



Rosemary can easily see the Depository as she was slowing. Even if her eyes were looking straight out from her head, she could see with both eyes. More likely, she had her eyes turned a little in the direction of the shot, which allowed her to focus a line-of-sight on the pigeons.

"Pigeons didn't wait 5 seconds to take flight after hearing the shot."

Who said that? Must be more Masomactics.

Another excellent graphic Jerry. I think that it might be enlightening if the positioning of the limo during the time period is also indicated on the graphic.