When Was JBC Hit?

[Jack Nessan]

Since you brought up the Limo occupants.

Mrs Connally

Mr. DULLES. To the right was into your arms more or less?
Mrs. CONNALLY. No, he turned away from me. I was pretending that I was him. I never again looked in the back seat of the car after my husband was shot. My concern was for him, and I remember that he turned to the right and then just slumped down into the seat, so that I reached over to pull him toward me. X was trying to get him down and me down. The jump seats were not very roomy, so that there were reports that he slid into the seat of the car, which he did not; that he fell over into my lap, which he did not.
I just pulled him over into my arms because it would have been impossible to get us really both down with me sitting and me holding him. So that I looked out, I mean as he was in my arms, I put my head down over his head so that his head and my head were right together, and all I could see, too, were the people flashing by. I didn't look back any more. The third shot that I heard I felt, it felt like spent buckshot falling all over us, and then, of course, I too could see that it was the matter, brain tissue, or whatever, just human matter, all over the car and both of us.

John Connally

Mr. SPECTER. Nellie is Mrs. Connally?
Governor CONNALLY. Mrs. Connally. When she pulled me over into her lap, she could tell I was still breathing and moving, and she said, "Don't worry, Be quiet. You are going to be all right." She Just kept telling me I was going to be all right.
After the third shot, and I heard Roy Kellerman tell the driver, "Bill, get out of line." And then I saw him move, and I assumed he was moving a button or something on the panel of the automobile, and he said, "Get us to a hospital quick." I assumed he was saying this to the patrolman, the motorcycle police who were leading us.

William Robert Greer.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, how many shots, or how many noises have you just described that you heard?
Mr. GREER. I know there was three that I heard--three. But I cannot remember any more than probably three. I know there was three anyway that I heard.

Roy Kellerman heard a flurry of shots enter the Limo(which I believe were the fragments bouncing around), but he definitely heard more than two.

Mr. SPECTER. You mean now two shots in addition to the first noise?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; yes, sir; at least.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, to the best of your ability to recollect, exactly when did your automobile first accelerate?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Our car accelerated immediately on the time-at the time--this flurry of shots came into it.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you say the acceleration--
Mr. KELLERMAN. Between the second and third shot.

I would also like to finally add that three shells were found in the sniper's nest and the closest earwitness, the "boom click click, boom click click, boom click click" man(Harold Norman) heard 3 shots.



And the closest earwitness, Harold Norman, who was just on the floor below heard 3 shots.

Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear?
Mr. NORMAN. Three.

@3:58

JohnM

These witnesses are a perfect example of the ever -changing and morphing witness statements. All at some time, have no knowledge of a third shot or the second shot is the headshot or plainly there was only two shots. This is why a compilation comparing different witness statements as to two or three shots is flawed from the very get go.

 
Nellies first comments were made through her spokesman Julian Read after he was asked by the press during a press conference immediately after the assassination:
“Nellie does not know about a third shot”

Gov Connally only heard two shots. He claimed he said Oh No No No after he was struck by the bullet. Both Jackie and Nellie stated that he stated that after the first shot.

Greer stated he accelerated the car after the second shot. Additionally, Arlen Specter wrote a memo to J. Lee Rankin two days after Greer’s testimony in which he said, “ Mr. Greer told me on March 3rd that he recollected two shots, but he then testified he heard three shots.”
Greer was interviewed by the HSCA, in his report dated February 28, 1978, the investigator wrote:   “Greer does not recall the third shot and final shot.”

Kellerman places the headshot as the second shot by stating that the car accelerates after the second shot and before the third. 

The other two witnesses alongside Norman: James Jarmin describes the car accelerating after the headshot and Bonnie Ray Williams stated there was only two shots. 
Interesting, you would choose Norman over Williams and Jarmin.  Norman made no statement until four days after the assassination and then had an assortment of added information in his different statements. 

The Zapruder film clearly shows the car accelerates after the headshot. According to James Altgens stated that the headshot was the last shot.

[John Mytton]

John is right. the only things laser-surveyed were stationary buildings, structures, streets and objects as they exist today.



The positioning of the limousine, the two men and the Stemmons sign were entirely subjective. The absurbly-low JFK inshoot and left-chest exit came from a conspiracy theorist.

Thanks Jerry, I didn't notice some of your other examples of the inconsistencies between the two images, at the end of the day Dale Myers did this a decade ago with far more accuracy.

Btw your date in your graphic after "Jerry Organ" is 2013?

JohnM

[John Mytton]

These witnesses are a perfect example of the ever -changing and morphing witness statements.

Yes that can be true, nobody wants to be wrong.

In the following video Jay Watson who was a reporter and trained to notice details and was in a media follow up car quickly got back to the studio and tells the world within the hour @27:40 that there was three shots.
At another point in the video Bill Newman doesn't recall a third shot but his wife @32:20 recalls three shots.
Also Jerry, Jay's colleague in the follow up car @36:20 recalls 3 shots.

@27:40

Imo in this case the strongest pieces of evidence is the three expended shells found on the floor of the sniper's nest which concurs with the vast majority of earwitnesses.





JohnM

[Dan O'meara]

You're all over the place Dan, you show three Agents in Altgens6 who all look over their right shoulders looking for a sniper and who were all obviously at that point in time reacting to Kennedy showing signs of being shot and one describes the sounds at that later time in the plural "fireworks"!
Zapruder who was filming at a point not that much further away would have heard the same sounds or do you think that an additional ten or twenty yards would muffle the sounds?



JohnM

You're all over the place Dan

Reporting Sitzman's specific observation about the noise level of the shots at Zapruder's position, and her lack of reaction to them, is hardly "all over the place".
On the other hand, John, your own posts require a bit of clarification.
You posted the following:

Another factor to consider is after hearing a shot at approximately Z160, Connally quickly turns to the right.

You then post the evidence for camera "jiggle". However, your jiggle analysis appears to be for shots around z222/z223, z312/z313 and z150/z151

So which is it- a first shot miss "at approximately z160" or at z150/z151?

Whichever it is,in the scenario you're proposing, the assassin has watched the limo turn from Main onto Houston, travel down Houston, turn left onto Elm Street, travel down Elm Street and as soon as the limo goes behind the oak tree, the assassin has decided to take the first shot. The very first moment the limo is obscured is the moment the assassin has decided is the perfect time to open fire!

In his WC testimony, Ronald Fischer makes the following point about the man sat in the Sniper's Nest seconds before the motorcade reaches Dealey Plaza:

"And I looked up and I watched the man for, oh, I'd say, 10 or 15 seconds. It was until the first car came around the corner of Houston and Main. And, then, when that car did come around the corner, I took my attention off of the man in the window and started watching the parade. The man held my attention for 10 or 15 seconds, because he appeared uncomfortable for one, and, secondly, he wasn't watching-uh---he didn't look like he was watching for the parade. He looked like he was looking down toward the Trinity River and the triple underpass down at the end-toward the end of Ell Street. And--uh--all the time I watched him, he never moved his head, he never-he never moved anything. Just was there transfixed."

There could hardly be a better description of an assassin "visualising" the kill zone.
This is general view the assassin would've had as he stared "transfixed" at the kill zone.



To imagine he wasn't aware of the oak tree is a non-starter.
The assassin can see that the best shot is to be taken as the limo clears the oak tree and is in the open road beyond.

I have done a serious amount of research on the specific topic of when the first shot was fired ["The First Shot" thread]
I have collected a mountain of evidence which demonstrates that the first shot was taken around z222/z223 and is the shot that caused JFK's arms to fly towards his throat as seen in the Z-film.
You should trust me on this one John.

[Martin Weidmann]

Yes that can be true, nobody wants to be wrong.

In the following video Jay Watson who was a reporter and trained to notice details and was in a media follow up car quickly got back to the studio and tells the world within the hour @27:40 that there was three shots.
At another point in the video Bill Newman doesn't recall a third shot but his wife @32:20 recalls three shots.
Also Jerry, Jay's colleague in the follow up car @36:20 recalls 3 shots.

@27:40

Imo in this case the strongest pieces of evidence is the three expended shells found on the floor of the sniper's nest which concurs with the vast majority of earwitnesses.





JohnM

Imo in this case the strongest pieces of evidence is the three expended shells found on the floor of the sniper's nest which concurs with the vast majority of earwitnesses.

Are these the shells Fritz picked up or the ones he threw down in the sniper's nest?

[Dan O'meara]

Sure, they accurately laser plotted Dealey Plaza 60 years later, did they allow for the variation in land movement, repaved road height, etc etc?

Also I juxtaposed the two frames from their video presentation and matching the two images showed heavy variations, for example the Don Knotts Lab's Stemmons sign has the wrong angle, the side of the Limo warps, Connally's shoulder height is way off, etc etc.
And again, and listen closely this time, as can be seen by The Don Knotts Lab Hulking out Connally, this avalanche of mistakes leads to more unavoidable errors and lastly the exact plotting of the precise 3D positions of Hulked out Connally and Kennedy from a 2D image is open to biased interpretation.
Iirc Dale Myers scientifically allowed any variations of 3D depth which concurred with the 2D images to fit his hypothesis whereas the opposite methodology of placing the models to achieve a predetermined outcome is the antithesis of science.



JohnM

Great graphics (as per usual) by yourself and Jerry.
The difference in Connally's positioning between the two images is startling.
How has this passed under the radar for such a supposedly hi-tech representation?
It's so bad it has the whiff of something trying to fit a preconceived idea.

LATER EDIT:  And what's with the wing mirror?

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

When was JBC shot through the chest?
I ask "when" in terms of the Z-film - when in the Z-film is JBC hit?
That is to say, when does JBC first show signs that he has been hit [as we cannot see the actual bullet entering him].
I am not asking, when does JBC think he was hit or when any other witness believes he was hit or what any "theory" has to say about it.
When, during the Z-film, does JBC show the clear signs of an extreme reaction that can be safely interpreted as being shot through the chest?

In the clip below, which is s bit jerkier than I would like, we see JBC looking off to his right as JFK waves and smiles to the crowds. He is partially obscured by a part of the limo.
JBC is looking off to his right as he disappears behind the Stemmons sign.
He is still looking off to his right as he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign.



Below is z223.
It shows JBC after he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign.
He is still looking off to his right as he was before he passed behind the Stemmons sign and, in my opinion, he looks calm and composed:




Almost immediately after this frame JBC appears to have an extreme reaction.
The clip below is from z222 to z250.
In my opinion it shows JBC having an extreme reaction, most likely to being shot:



Is it an extreme reaction to being shot or could it be something else?
If you agree it is a reaction to being shot then when does this reaction begin?

Connally starts to react at Z224.
If reaction takes say 0.25 sec then that is 4.5 Z frames, which suggests that the shot was at Z219.5, ie Z219 or Z220.

The lapel flips at Z224.
Lattimer's tests show that a lapel flip happens 0.3 sec after the shot (if the slug is tumbling as it exits).
This suggests that the shot was 5.5 frames before the shot, which suggests that the shot was at Z218.5, ie Z218 or Z219.

I have shown that the Lattimer test had the slug too close to the lapel, in fact Lattimer's shot took a chunk out of the edge of the lapel.
So, Lattimer's test was too forceful, ie if the slug had exited in the correct location then the shot would be say 0.33  sec before, not 0.3 sec before.
This suggests that the shot was 6.0 frames before, ie at Z218.0, ie at Z218, which is what i have always said.

What i mean is that Oswald's shot-2 hit Connally at Z218.
The shot would have left the muzzle at say Z216.
Sound would have hit Connally's ears at say Z220 (too lazy to do a proper calc).

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

Sure, they accurately laser plotted Dealey Plaza 60 years later, did they allow for the variation in land movement, repaved road height, etc etc?

Also I juxtaposed the two frames from their video presentation and matching the two images showed heavy variations, for example the Don Knotts Lab's Stemmons sign has the wrong angle, the side of the Limo warps, Connally's shoulder height is way off, etc etc.
And again, and listen closely this time, as can be seen by The Don Knotts Lab Hulking out Connally, this avalanche of mistakes leads to more unavoidable errors and lastly the exact plotting of the precise 3D positions of Hulked out Connally and Kennedy from a 2D image is open to biased interpretation.
Iirc Dale Myers scientifically allowed any variations of 3D depth which concurred with the 2D images to fit his hypothesis whereas the opposite methodology of placing the models to achieve a predetermined outcome is the antithesis of science.



JohnM

Knotts Lab said that they allowed for the change in height due to the road re-paving.
But i know that re-paving often involves digging out the old tarmacs, ie 2 or 3 ovem, before laying the new.
So, a new level is sometimes lower than the old level.
But this will have a minor effect, compared to any issue re the positions & angles of jfk & Connally.

Knotts did a krapp job of estimating the positions of jfk & of Connally.
Dale Myers did a good job.

We see jfk turning from his right to his left during say Z190 to when he disappears behind the sign at say Z214.
When i replicate that kind of turn i naturally dip forward a little.
With a back brace on i reckon the forward dip would be even greater.