When Was JBC Hit?

[Dan O'meara]

Yes it is. At worst Oswald fired the first shot when JFK was clear of all parts ofc the tree except a few outer leaves that really did not hide much. And he reacted immediately but gradually, by turning forward moving left, then bringing his hands to his upper chest and then slipping down and leaning to the left with his head down and facing to the left. All of this starts at z193.

At worst Oswald fired the first shot when JFK was clear of all parts of the tree except a few outer leaves that really did not hide much.


 
So you finally admit that you have the assassin shooting through the oak tree!!
Why would he do that when the limo was about to enter a stretch of open road?

And he reacted immediately but gradually, by turning forward moving left,

Immediately but gradually?? 
Please explain to everyone what "turning forward moving left" means.

What is unusual about someone being shot in the leg and not feeling it? It is actually very  common for people to be shot and not feel anything immediately.

Just because your theory is demented doesn't mean you have to be.

[Andrew Mason]

At worst Oswald fired the first shot when JFK was clear of all parts of the tree except a few outer leaves that really did not hide much.


 
So you finally admit that you have the assassin shooting through the oak tree!!
Why would he do that when the limo was about to enter a stretch of open road?

Because he knew he may need to make more than one shot before the car had moved out of accurate shooting range and he shot as soon as he felt he had a clear view of the President.  At that point there were only a few leaves which did not prevent an accurate shot.  I am not saying he shot when he couldn’t see JFK.  I am saying that is the worst case shooting before JFK was not completely clear. And I am saying he was clear of the oak tree by z193 when the first shot occurred.

While we are asking such questions, why would the shooter wait over a full second and a half to shoot after JFK was in the clear?  And why would the shooter fire a shot after the head shot?  Why would the shooter do that after seeing an obvious fatal shot?

And he reacted immediately but gradually, by turning forward moving left,

Immediately but gradually?? 

Is that difficult to understand? He reacted within a few frames by turning forward with a blank look, then leaned to his left and brought both hands to his upper chest, then he slipped down with a choking expression, then he leaned forward with his head facing downward.

Please explain to everyone what "turning forward moving left" means.

His head turns from facing right to facing forward. Then his body moved leaned to the left exposing JBC to view from the rear as observed by Dave Powers.

[Dan O'meara]

Because he knew he may need to make more than one shot before the car had moved out of accurate shooting range and he shot as soon as he felt he had a clear view of the President.  At that point there were only a few leaves which did not prevent an accurate shot.  I am not saying he shot when he couldn’t see JFK.  I am saying that is the worst case shooting before JFK was not completely clear. And I am saying he was clear of the oak tree by z193 when the first shot occurred.

The usual demented nonsense.
JFK is covered by leaves but clear of the tree??!!
The craziness you have to try to sell to prop up your demented theory is actually funny.
I wonder if you believe you are somehow getting away with it?
You do realise that everyone can see it, don't you?

The only reason you are finally conceding that JFK was indeed covered by foliage at the frame you propose for the first shot (z193) is that, earlier in this thread, Jerry completely and comprehensively demolished the underhand method you used to try to sell the lie that JFK was in the clear by z193. For anyone interested, this demolition starts with Andrew's REPLY#275 on pg 35 of this thread and continues for a few pages. Jerry reveals your deceptive use of the Itek analysis which you knew all along suffered from some fundamental flaws which you knowingly overlooked. He also reveals your underhand use of a blurred picture to sell the lie that JFK was clear of the oak tree by z193.
He does this by showing us how the picture would look without the blur and it reveals that JFK is well and truly covered by foliage at the time of your proposed first shot:



A closer look...



In this situation JFK would be situated somewhere in the red circle below:



The real way to determine JFK's position from the SN at a given Z-frame is by the FBI reconstruction of the motorcade which focused on the position of JFK and JBC with respect to the Z-film, taking pictures from the SN at various frames that clearly shows us that JFK wasn't clear of the tree until @ z207. Unfortunately, a pic wasn't taken @ z193, the closest was z186, so we can only estimate where JFK was according to the FBI reconstruction and, unsurprisingly, we find it not dissimilar to the picture Jerry corrected (the red circle represents the approximate position of JFK @z193):



By any metric, JFK was hidden by the oak tree from the SN @z193. Andrew's pantomime cries of "Oh no he wasn't" are irrelevant.
The idea that the assassin would shoot through the oak tree is absolutely preposterous and not worthy of consideration. Particularly when we take the WC testimony of Ronald Fischer into account, in which he describes the assassin visualising the kill zone - while everyone else was anticipating the motorcade entering Dealey Plaza, the assassin was staring "transfixed" towards the triple underpass:

"And I looked up and I watched the man for, oh, I'd say, 10 or 15 seconds. It was until the first car came around the corner of Houston and Main. And, then, when that car did come around the corner, I took my attention off of the man in the window and started watching the parade. The man held my attention for 10 or 15 seconds, because he appeared uncomfortable for one, and, secondly, he wasn't watching-uh---he didn't look like he was watching for the parade. He looked like he was looking down toward the Trinity River and the triple underpass down at the end-toward the end of Ell Street. And--uh--all the time I watched him, he never moved his head, he never-he never moved anything. Just was there transfixed."

This is the view the assassin was staring at "transfixed":



Imagine you are the assassin visualising the kill zone. Where, in the above picture, is the perfect place to take the kill shot?
I think it is the area just beyond the white vehicle. There is a sweeping s-shape in the road and that middle part is where the limo is moving almost directly away from the SN. There would be hardly any lateral movement of the target, an unobstructed view of the target and plenty of time to get off multiple shots if required.
The assassin would have been fully aware of the oak tree and that there would be no need to take the shot until the limo was well clear of it.
The idea that the assassin weighed all this up and then decided to take the first shot while the target was anywhere near the oak tree is truly demented.

While we are asking such questions, why would the shooter wait over a full second and a half to shoot after JFK was in the clear?  And why would the shooter fire a shot after the head shot?  Why would the shooter do that after seeing an obvious fatal shot?

The shooter didn't wait over a full second and a half after JFK was in the clear.
JFK is in the clear at z207 and the shot is taken at z222, less than a second after the limo is in the clear. This makes perfect sense.



And why would the shooter fire a shot after the head shot?

I'd like to turn that question around a bit.
You agree the last two shots are close together. Because you believe Oswald took the shots you are tied to the toytown bolt-action MC as the weapon. Because I don't believe Oswald took the shots I'm not tied to the MC so the second and third shot could have been a lot closer together than would have been possible with a bolt-action rifle. There are plenty of witnesses who describe the last two shots as being almost simultaneous - Hickey springs to mind when he described hardly any time element between the two shots.
Jack Nessan presents a compelling argument for only two shots having been fired, an argument that includes a really surprising amount of witnesses who first describe only two shots. I believe it is possible that the second and third shots were so close together many witnesses heard it as one shot and an echo.
So my question is this - in the scenario of two shots fired incredibly close together, which shot is the accurate shot?
Obviously it is the first of the two shots (the second of 3 shots). Also, the lack of time between the second and third shot indicates that the decision was to take two shots whatever the case. As I've mentioned elsewhere, this last shot may have been pulled high due to the sudden arrival of a Secret Service agent on the trunk of the limo or Jackie climbing onto the trunk.
There is no reason to think the second shot missed JFK and the shooter adjusted with incredible rapidity to hit the target with the most successful and accurate shot. This doesn't make sense to me.

[Dan O'meara]

Putting Andrew's nonsense aside it is obvious that JBC emerges from behind the Stemmons sign looking calm and composed.
Less than half a second after he emerges from behind the sign he is suddenly thrashing around in a most extreme manner that clearly indicates a reaction to being hit. His shirt cuff is blown downwards as his wrist is hit, his right side is thrust forward and down by the impact of the bullet crushing his rib, the right side of his jacket radically bulges out as the blood and bone is blown out of his chest. Around z225 he begins his extreme reflex reaction to being shot.
All of this pinpoints the moment of impact at z222/z223.
The question is - does JFK begin to react in a similar fashion at the same time? If so, this would be strong evidence supporting the theory that both men were shot through at the same time.
JFK's reaction to being shot through the neck is that both his hands fly up towards his throat and his elbows hyper-extend upwards in a most extreme manner. This action is unbelievably quick and is indicative of a reflex reaction. The Z-film reveals the exact moment this extreme reaction begins. The best way to gauge when JFK begins to react is to focus on his LEFT ARM. The footage below (z169-226) shows JFK's last wave. It starts with his right arm resting on the side of the limo, elbow out, with his right hand reaching back into the limo holding his left hand, which appears to rest on his stomach area, his left elbow down by his side. He releases his left hand as he begins to wave with his right. His left hand stays resting on his stomach area, his left elbow down by his side. His left arm/hand stays in this position as he goes behind the sign and is still in this position as he emerges from behind it:



When he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign (z224) his left arm is still down by his side. By z225 his left elbow has begun it's radical and extreme movement up to it's fullest extent. For an "instantaneous" reaction this would indicate a shot passing through JFK around z223/z224

In the clip below (z224-226) we see his left hand still resting on his stomach area, his left elbow down by his side but obscured by the top of the limo door (z224). In the next frame there is a slight movement of his left arm and hand (z225). In the final frame his elbow comes into view from behind the limo door, his hand clearly moving to his throat (z226):



The Z-film reveals that both men are having an extreme and rapid reaction at exactly the same moment - z225 - indicating a bullet passing through both men @z222/z223.

[Zeon Mason]

In Andrews scenario, of a z193  6.5 mm bullet at 2000ft/sec having gone thru only a minimal amount of JFKs body and throat with only a minimal transfer of momentum,  thus the velocity reduced only by 500ft/sec,  then should not that bullet  now traveling at least at 1500 ft/ sec and going directly into JCs left thigh muscle have been buried pretty deeply in his leg?

In the WC scenario, the reason for the bullet supposedly having fallen out of JCs left leg was because that bullet lost much more velocity from having gone thru more of JCs torso, muscle and  passing between 2 rib bones AND also  from going thru JCs wrist bone. Thus the thigh wound was very shallow.

So how does  Andrew account for JCs thigh wound being so  shallow  if the Z 193 bullet after exiting JFK still had a velocity of  1500 ft/ sec when it hit JCs left leg?

[Dan O'meara]

In Andrews scenario, of a z193  6.5 mm bullet at 2000ft/sec having gone thru only a minimal amount of JFKs body and throat with only a minimal transfer of momentum,  thus the velocity reduced only by 500ft/sec,  then should not that bullet  now traveling at least at 1500 ft/ sec and going directly into JCs left thigh muscle have been buried pretty deeply in his leg?

In the WC scenario, the reason for the bullet supposedly having fallen out of JCs left leg was because that bullet lost much more velocity from having gone thru more of JCs torso, muscle and  passing between 2 rib bones AND also  from going thru JCs wrist bone. Thus the thigh wound was very shallow.

So how does  Andrew account for JCs thigh wound being so  shallow  if the Z 193 bullet after exiting JFK still had a velocity of  1500 ft/ sec when it hit JCs left leg?

Such a bullet should have passed straight through JBC's leg, which it obviously didn't do.
This is just one of a dozen crazy elements that feature in Andrew's demented theory.
He accounts for this by saying the bullet actually went in as far as the femur where it left a metal fragment. It didn't smash the femur apart in the way JBC's wrist bone was smashed apart, it just touched the femur and left a fragment. How all the velocity of the bullet was lost isn't fully explained.
Clearly, this would have the bullet buried deep in the leg, completely embedded in the leg, completely enveloped by flesh, trapped by the muscle which would have tightly closed in on the bullet after it entered the leg. Yet somehow, by some means he hasn't quite invented, the bullet just falls out of JBC's leg as if it was in a hole drilled in wood.

[Andrew Mason]

The usual demented nonsense.
JFK is covered by leaves but clear of the tree??!!

Maybe we can settle this debate by reference to the lane markers. In this frame from the 1963 Secret Service film, JFK's back is even with the end of the lane markers:
Here is CE882, the scale map of Dealey Plaza showing the lane markers on which I have shown the position of JFK when he is in the position of being even with the ends of the lane markers:

On this, I have shown the sight line from Zapruder to JFK and extended it to the right where it intersects with the very end of the curved concrete wall around the end of the reflecting pool.
So to determine the zframe that this corresponds to, we simply look for the frame in which JFK aligns with the end of that concrete wall.  It appears to be z196:

This is the view the assassin was staring at "transfixed":



Imagine you are the assassin visualising the kill zone. Where, in the above picture, is the perfect place to take the kill shot?

I would have to say it would be well before this position. JFK has been in the clear for almost a car length, say 15-20 feet.  Why would the shooter wait at all? I would suggest that, since JFK was visible while passing under the outer oak tree branches, the shooter could easily have pulled the trigger as soon as he was clear and did not have to wait at all.  He could have fired even a bit earlier than that while JFK was here but still quite visible:

[Andrew Mason]

In Andrews scenario, of a z193  6.5 mm bullet at 2000ft/sec having gone thru only a minimal amount of JFKs body and throat with only a minimal transfer of momentum,  thus the velocity reduced only by 500ft/sec,  then should not that bullet  now traveling at least at 1500 ft/ sec and going directly into JCs left thigh muscle have been buried pretty deeply in his leg?

In the WC scenario, the reason for the bullet supposedly having fallen out of JCs left leg was because that bullet lost much more velocity from having gone thru more of JCs torso, muscle and  passing between 2 rib bones AND also  from going thru JCs wrist bone. Thus the thigh wound was very shallow.

So how does  Andrew account for JCs thigh wound being so  shallow  if the Z 193 bullet after exiting JFK still had a velocity of  1500 ft/ sec when it hit JCs left leg?

According to Larry Sturdivan, at 1000 fps to 1400 fps the bullet will start deforming on impact with bone (Sturdivan 3H396).   The 1400 fps is if it hits nose-first.  The 1000 fps is if it hits sideways.  It deformed just on the side of the butt end in only one place. Let's say that indicates that it hit bone at 1000 to 1200 fps.
Dr. Shires had always insisted that there was a small piece of lead in the femur. If that is the case, then let's say the bullet struck the femur enough to dent the copper jacket at a bit more than 1100 fps.  At that point, it did not have sufficient energy to break the femur or deform further, so it either stopped or deflected away from the bone. If it entered the thigh (Shires described it as an oblique wound) at 1500 fps then it just had to lose a bit less than 400 fps in passing, butt-first, through the skin, subcutaneous fat and thigh muscle (the vastus medialis, which is the inner thigh muscle)  to strike the femur in that manner.  Seems plausible to me but maybe someone who has treated bullet wounds and is a ballistics expert would care to opine.