When Was JBC Hit?

[Royell Storing]

     Like my recently Proving that for 60+ years the motorcycle cop on the Darnell/Martin Film is NOT  DPD Officer Haygood, my research on the Non-Alignment of JFK vs Gov Connally at Love Field is Tedious and Fact driven. I only exchange source information "back stage" with sincerely devoted JFK Assassination Researchers. The Old Guard JFK Assassination Researchers botched this case from the jump. These same people are now doing everything they can to cover their rear ends/reputations. I am currently putting a bow on the TSBD NOT being secure for 2+ hrs following the assassination. I have found multiple Image Documentation which makes my claim a Fact. This TSBD situation DQ's all of the "evidence" found inside the TSBD within that 2+ hour period of time.         

[Andrew Mason]

quote author=Jerry Organ link=topic=3867.msg157287#msg157287 date=1719608439]


Do you mean something like this, Charles?



Yes, Jerry, thanks I think you get the general idea. Also, I question Andrew’s angle calculation for the Z193 frame. It appears to me that he has mistaken a glare from the sun for the rear door handle. I circled the two door handles (as I see them) on the photo below:




If I am correct about the door handles, then Andrew’s angle calculation would appear to be off significantly. It sure looks to me like there is more of a difference in camera angles between the Main Street photo and the Z193 frame than the 0.2-degrees that Andrew calculated.

I think you are right about my placement of the rear doorhandle in z193.  I have moved it to where you suggested:



So at z193 the angle appears to be 30.5 degrees or 2.4 degrees more than in the Main St. photo (28.1 degrees).

[Zeon Mason]

I don’t need any image other than the Z film frames from Z223-z226 to see with my own eyes that JFK and JC are reacting simultaneously like 2 persons being hit by some force.

Now there may still be some argument that 2 gunman could  have fired simultaneously at about Z223-Z224 and  the 1st gunmans bullet hit JFK , exited his throat and hit the curb near Tague, while the 2nd gunmans bullet missed JFK but struck JC , going thru his chest and wrist and stopping in his  left leg.

But it would have to be one gunman with a suppressed rifle because otherwise would not eat witness have heard  2 simultaneous  loud shots at Z224 as noticeably louder than a single shot?

Or, if 2 shots were not exactly simultaneous, but very close like 1sec apart, then would not there would be reverse pattern of 1.2……3 (which no witnesses  heard such pattern as far as I know.)

You cannot even make this work with just one gunman firing 2 rapid shots using a loud sounding semi auto rifle from the TSBD 6th floor SE window, because

A. There is no way to hit JC in his right side back wound location without going thru some part of JFKs body.

B. Harold Norman although maybe spacing all 3 shots completed in as little as 4 secs, never the less had all 3 shots EVENLY spaced.

Therefore a 2nd gunman would have to use a suppressed rifle that fired a bullet that no one heard, and that gunman would have be located behind the JFK limo somewhere farther west of  1st gunman in TSBD SE window to allow a trajectory past the body of JFK allowing the hit to JC in the left side of his back.

The only thing that could remotely even support this speculative premise would be the SW 6th floor window of TSBD where Arnold  Rowland saw a gunman briefly at 12:15 and described the rifle having a large scope which makes it less probable the rifle an MC rifle with a side mounted scope.

So if Knotts  Lab computer model position and angle of JCs shoulder can be demonstrated to be more accurate than what the Z film frames at Z223-225 indicate, then the only way to explain the simultaneous movement of JC and JFK would be the 2 gunman theory with 2nd gunman using a suppressed rifle.

Then the question would be why only the 2nd gunman west of the TSBD SE window, used a suppressed rifle while his comrade at used a loud sounding rifle.

The answer would have to be from the CT side since a 2 gunman theory is de facto a conspiracy theory.

[Royell Storing]

  I have recently discovered Images proving that the TSBD was un-secure for better than 2 hrs immediately following the Kill Shot. I have also found images of a man physically connected to this TSBD "Open House". There's No question that a "Conspiracy" was employed to assassinate JFK. None. More soon!   

[Andrew Mason]

I don’t need any image other than the Z film frames from Z223-z226 to see with my own eyes that JFK and JC are reacting simultaneously like 2 persons being hit by some force.

Exactly: "like" two persons being hit by some force.  They are reacting at the same time (although we really can't tell when JFK began reacting).  I can tell that JFK is reacting to his throat wound.  But the evidence is that JFK reacted that way to the first shot.  And Governor Connally said he reacted physically to the first shot but was not hit in the back by it.  He said he was hit in the back a perceptible time after that - after he had turned to his right to look back over his right shoulder to see the President because he recognized it as a rifle shot and feared that the President was being assassinated.

If JBC had said he reacted to being hit in the back and then turned around for 3 seconds to try to look at JFK because he feared they were being assassinated, I would agree with you that this must be where he was hit. But that is not the evidence.  There is nothing about his behaviour from z225 to z270 that is inconsistent with him not being hit in the torso by the shot he felt.  Indeed, it would be rather difficult to understand why he would not fall down immediately after being hit like that.

The rest of your post speculating about another gunman with a silent shot is just that - speculation - as it is based on zero evidence.

[Charles Collins]

I think you are right about my placement of the rear doorhandle in z193.  I have moved it to where you suggested:



So at z193 the angle appears to be 30.5 degrees or 2.4 degrees more than in the Main St. photo (28.1 degrees).

It is difficult to discern the door handles but that seems to me to be the correct spots and there seems to be something there. It is also difficult to discern the rear handholds due to the motorcycle front forks beyond the left one and the chrome trim on the front of the Queen Mary beyond the right handhold. However I think we both agree that is the way it appears in Z193. Although, as Murphy’s law would have it, the Roberdeaux map seems to indicate an angle closer to 28-degrees when the line of sight is laid out on it. The image quality of the Z193 image might be part of the issue.
Anyway, what angle do you calculate the bullet trajectory would be (at Z193) from the sniper’s nest window relative to the long axis of the JFK limo? My quick analysis indicates about 16-degrees.

[Royell Storing]

  Just look at Connally. He turns his entire Upper Body to the (R), (not just a head turn), in order to see what is going on with JFK in the backseat.  Connally's jump seat is close to the center of the Limo. Being close to the center of the vehicle gives Connally the Open Space to make his exaggerated upper body turn.   

[Dan O'meara]

Exactly: "like" two persons being hit by some force.  They are reacting at the same time (although we really can't tell when JFK began reacting).  I can tell that JFK is reacting to his throat wound.  But the evidence is that JFK reacted that way to the first shot.  And Governor Connally said he reacted physically to the first shot but was not hit in the back by it.  He said he was hit in the back a perceptible time after that - after he had turned to his right to look back over his right shoulder to see the President because he recognized it as a rifle shot and feared that the President was being assassinated.

If JBC had said he reacted to being hit in the back and then turned around for 3 seconds to try to look at JFK because he feared they were being assassinated, I would agree with you that this must be where he was hit. But that is not the evidence.  There is nothing about his behaviour from z225 to z270 that is inconsistent with him not being hit in the torso by the shot he felt.  Indeed, it would be rather difficult to understand why he would not fall down immediately after being hit like that.

The rest of your post speculating about another gunman with a silent shot is just that - speculation - as it is based on zero evidence.

(although we really can't tell when JFK began reacting)

Yes, we can

He said he was hit in the back a perceptible time after that

He said he was hit a "split second" after hearing the shot. He said the two events were so close together he thought there was multiple people firing at the same time or that an automatic rifle (which can fire two rounds in a split second) was being used.
His memory of the event has the typical temporal distortions experienced by those who go through a traumatic, life-threatening event. That is to say, in his memory of the event time slowed down in a very radical way. The shot he heard and the shot he felt were the same shot.
The right side of his jacket didn't burst forward because JBC was concerned about JFK. It burst forward as a result of the bullet exiting his chest.

There is nothing about his behaviour from z225 to z270 that is inconsistent with him not being hit in the torso by the shot he felt.