When Was JBC Hit?

[Jack Nessan]

So the straight line trajectory doesn’t work for the SBT, so there must have been some zigzagging happening , only not as extreme as the original hand drawn diagram showed ?

Still waiting for a real empirical test that includes the the bullet going thru wrist bone and stopping finally into material replicating thigh muscle.

The 2003 Beyond Conspiracy test not only failed to prove any zigzagging, but in the straight line trajectory they DID record, the bullet did not exit from the throat of the JFK replica torso, but rather from the upper right chest of the torso.

And then there was NO wrist bone element or thigh tissue material  that the bullet had to continue thru after exiting the 2nd torso, the bullet instead,  into soft ground.

Even with that critical omission, the bullet recovered looked much more deformed than CE 399 was.

How about finish this thought train you are on and explain all of Gov Connally’s wounds starting from the point where the only way to explain the wound in JBC’s back is the fact that the bullet first must pass through JFK’s neck. Somewhere in this belief you are presenting one bullet stopped and another took over coursing through his body to his thigh?

[Zeon Mason]

I’m not saying the SBT trajectory is impossible.
I’m suggesting it should be aligned as a nearly straight line  trajectory similar  to Myers computer graphic model with a slight adjustment to Myers positioning of JCs legs and where JC was holding his hat at time of impact of the bullet entering his back.

 There  has not been,imo, , a satisfactory experiment that’s proved a straight line trajectory for an MC 6.5mm ball nosed bullet that aligns the wounds of JFK and JC,  nor has demonstrated such minimal deformation as CE 399 displays , nor has there been a replication of any zigzagging that occurred by this type 6.5 mm MC bullet when fired thru 2 replica human bodies.

Another series of tests  are needed to
Prove either :
1.  a straight line trajectory of a ball nosed 6.5 mm MC bullet going thru 2 replica bodies that align all the wounds and  when bullet recovered matches  the minimal deformation of CE339
Or:
2. Demonstrates A slight zigzagging trajectory that aligns the wounds and the 6.5mm ball nosed MC bullet when recovered matches CE399.

The 2003 Beyond Conspiracy experiment demonstrated the MC 6.5mm bullet did NOT zigzag, maintaining a straight path as it went thru both replica bodies.
The correct entry on the back of the JFK model was hit  , however  the exit from that model was NOT from the throat, instead , the bullet exited from the right side upper chest of the JFK replica torso.
The bullet recovered showed more deformation than CE 399 and this without even having to go also thru wrist bone after exiting the 2nd replica body.
Since  there was a fairly believable witness who found a bullet on the stretcher whom always maintained his opinion that the bullet he saw was a more pointed shaped bullet than the ball nosed round shaped CE 399 bullet., therefore requires more tests  firing conical shaped bullets from 6.5 mm to 7.62 mm.

The  angle of JCs legs and the angle of his upper torso and shoulders  must be positioned to align the trajectory path as close to straight line as possible and the hat must be upside down and the well of the hat hanging off the outside of the left thigh because that’s about the only way the same bullet that exited from JFKs body  could go thru  JCs right hand and not go thru the hat.

It’s a certainty from the Z- film frames ( unless there is some Conspiratorial alteration ) that JC was holding his hat upside down, clutched in his right hand which he raised up suddenly only AFTER being hit.

No hole in  the hat and no blood residue on the hat suggests the most probable position of the hat at the moment JC was hit, was such that the hat was upside down on the outside of JCs left leg being held down with the palm  of his right hand pressing the rim of the hat against the upper part of his left leg/thigh. The bullet entered  the top of JCs right wrist and then exited the bottom of the palm ,  then entered  JCs  inner left thigh, without any portion of the hat well or rim, being in the path of the bullet.

[Andrew Mason]

How about finish this thought train you are on and explain all of Gov Connally’s wounds starting from the point where the only way to explain the wound in JBC’s back is the fact that the bullet first must pass through JFK’s neck. Somewhere in this belief you are presenting one bullet stopped and another took over coursing through his body to his thigh?

There is abundant evidence that JFK was hit in the neck on the first shot and reacted to it. The first shot did not strike JBC in the back but it did not strike the car.  It is very likely that the wrist injury was from the bullet exiting JBC's chest.  But the wound characteristics and the condition of the bullet that caused the wrist wound differ markedly from that of the left thigh wound.  No one seems to have considered that JBC was hit by two bullets, the first one (thigh) which he did not feel (we know that he never felt it).

The trajectory from the SN through JFK's neck and travelling on a 14 degree right to left 18 degree downward path could easily have gone to the left side of JBC.


If it occurred where the witnesses said the first shot occurred (after z186 and before z202) with JBC turned to the right, the left thigh could easily have been in that path. With JFK to the far right so that his midline was immediately behind JBC's right shoulder (which is farther right than he was) this could have been the view of JBC that he saw before the first shot.

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

There is abundant evidence that JFK was hit in the neck on the first shot and reacted to it. The first shot did not strike JBC in the back but it did not strike the car.

There is abundant evidence that JFK was hit in the head (small fragments in xray) on the first shot (ricochet off signal arm)(at pseudo Z105) and reacted to it (my god i am hit). The first shot did strike the car (CE567 & 569)(hole in floor... photo dec1963).
So, back to the SBT.

[Jack Nessan]

I’m not saying the SBT trajectory is impossible.
I’m suggesting it should be aligned as a nearly straight line  trajectory similar  to Myers computer graphic model with a slight adjustment to Myers positioning of JCs legs and where JC was holding his hat at time of impact of the bullet entering his back.

 There  has not been,imo, , a satisfactory experiment that’s proved a straight line trajectory for an MC 6.5mm ball nosed bullet that aligns the wounds of JFK and JC,  nor has demonstrated such minimal deformation as CE 399 displays , nor has there been a replication of any zigzagging that occurred by this type 6.5 mm MC bullet when fired thru 2 replica human bodies.

Another series of tests  are needed to
Prove either :
1.  a straight line trajectory of a ball nosed 6.5 mm MC bullet going thru 2 replica bodies that align all the wounds and  when bullet recovered matches  the minimal deformation of CE339
Or:
2. Demonstrates A slight zigzagging trajectory that aligns the wounds and the 6.5mm ball nosed MC bullet when recovered matches CE399.

The 2003 Beyond Conspiracy experiment demonstrated the MC 6.5mm bullet did NOT zigzag, maintaining a straight path as it went thru both replica bodies.
The correct entry on the back of the JFK model was hit  , however  the exit from that model was NOT from the throat, instead , the bullet exited from the right side upper chest of the JFK replica torso.
The bullet recovered showed more deformation than CE 399 and this without even having to go also thru wrist bone after exiting the 2nd replica body.
Since  there was a fairly believable witness who found a bullet on the stretcher whom always maintained his opinion that the bullet he saw was a more pointed shaped bullet than the ball nosed round shaped CE 399 bullet., therefore requires more tests  firing conical shaped bullets from 6.5 mm to 7.62 mm.

The  angle of JCs legs and the angle of his upper torso and shoulders  must be positioned to align the trajectory path as close to straight line as possible and the hat must be upside down and the well of the hat hanging off the outside of the left thigh because that’s about the only way the same bullet that exited from JFKs body  could go thru  JCs right hand and not go thru the hat.

It’s a certainty from the Z- film frames ( unless there is some Conspiratorial alteration ) that JC was holding his hat upside down, clutched in his right hand which he raised up suddenly only AFTER being hit.

No hole in  the hat and no blood residue on the hat suggests the most probable position of the hat at the moment JC was hit, was such that the hat was upside down on the outside of JCs left leg being held down with the palm  of his right hand pressing the rim of the hat against the upper part of his left leg/thigh. The bullet entered  the top of JCs right wrist and then exited the bottom of the palm ,  then entered  JCs  inner left thigh, without any portion of the hat well or rim, being in the path of the bullet.

Oswald did not shoot JFK with a laser pointer. He shot him with a spinning bullet and transversing different mediums. The bullet left JFk’s throat beginning to yaw with the point of the bullet slightly up. Nobody knows what position Oswald was in when he fired the first shot, it is just an educated guess like all the positions that are possible in determining the exact position of JBC and JFK. Nobody is telling you they know exactly where everyone was at or in what position.

The experts were retained to explain how and why the conclusions were reached. If you are not going to either read their analysis or attempt to understand their logic but instead follow a preconceived idea about how it should appear then you obviously believe the experts are wrong and a conspiracy exists.

[Jack Nessan]

There is abundant evidence that JFK was hit in the neck on the first shot and reacted to it. The first shot did not strike JBC in the back but it did not strike the car.  It is very likely that the wrist injury was from the bullet exiting JBC's chest.  But the wound characteristics and the condition of the bullet that caused the wrist wound differ markedly from that of the left thigh wound.  No one seems to have considered that JBC was hit by two bullets, the first one (thigh) which he did not feel (we know that he never felt it).

The trajectory from the SN through JFK's neck and travelling on a 14 degree right to left 18 degree downward path could easily have gone to the left side of JBC.


If it occurred where the witnesses said the first shot occurred (after z186 and before z202) with JBC turned to the right, the left thigh could easily have been in that path. With JFK to the far right so that his midline was immediately behind JBC's right shoulder (which is farther right than he was) this could have been the view of JBC that he saw before the first shot.

Despite the fact there are numerous problems with this idea, there was only two shots fired, never three.

[John Mytton]

Shhhhh! ... (Don't tell Mason his figure placements are ridiculous. It's Christmas.)

I have to agree, Andrew's 3D characters don't look to be in the right position at the time of the SBF, whereas yours being corroborated with the Croft photo are much more accurate and are perfectly lined up fof the SBF. Very nice work.

Btw, the Knott Lab's 3D artists could learn a thing or two from you.

JohnM

[Andrew Mason]

Shhhhh! ... (Don't tell Mason his figure placements are ridiculous. It's Christmas.)

The question is whether a 12-14 degree right to left trajectory through JFK's midline/neck between z186 and z202 could, within the range of error in determining the relative positions of the two men from the zfilm, put the left thigh on a path from the SN through JFK's neck. That path could be either completely straight or with a possible slight shift in direction due to bullet instability after exiting JFK.

Your position seems to be that it could not be the first shot; that the shot through JFK occurred later on the second shot at z224 or thereabouts. That does not address the possibility (based on the amount of evidence, I would suggest it is a high probability) that the first shot, not the second, struck both men. You simply disagree with the evidence and refuse to consider that possibility.  It would be more helpful to use your considerable ability with 3D graphics to put the two men together as they appear in z195 and tell us where a bullet from the SN through JFK would go.