When Was JBC Hit?

[Royell Storing]

I have to agree, Andrew's 3D characters don't look to be in the right position at the time of the SBF, whereas yours being corroborated with the Croft photo are much more accurate and are perfectly lined up fof the SBF. Very nice work.

Btw, the Knott Lab's 3D artists could learn a thing or two from you.

JohnM

     All of these "visual aids" concerning Connally are way off. How in any of them does a bullet strike JFK and then possibly hit/go through Connally's WRIST? As they like to say in The South, "You guys are ate up with it". It's this same Lack of "Attention-To-Detail which consistently reveals all of you to be nothing more than Amateurs at best when it comes to lining anything out start-to-finish. You need to recognize your many limitations and work within those confines. Currently, you're embarrassing yourselves.   

[Andrew Mason]

There are inconsistencies between your different views and the photos.  As you point out, you need to raise JFK's shoulders in the rear view to fit with your lateral view and with Croft and Altgens' 5. You also have JFK with his ribs pressing against the side of the car, which does not fit with z195 or z225. I would place him at least an inch farther left and probably 2 inches. His right shoulder is definitely inside the car because the upper arm is extending outward from the shoulder to the top of the car:


JBC is also a tad too far left.  The top rear corner of the side window is out of place in your drawing. A sight line from the top rear of the side window frame (connecting the roof support) passes to the right of JBC's nose in Altgens' 5:



You are also using an angle from the SN to JFK of 8.5 degrees.


Even at z223 the right to left angle was 9.9 degrees:

At z188 the right to left angle was 16 degrees:



If you use the angle at z195, which is at least 13 degrees, and if you move JBC a bit right and if you move JFK two inches farther left so his rib cage is not pressing against the side of the car, the path through JFK's neck goes to the left of JBC's spine. With JBC turned right as he is at z185-z200 the shot through JFK would hit the left thigh if it was out to the left as it likely was (he would not sit as you have him with his legs together).

[Zeon Mason]

As Rowell just pointed out, the WRIST wound is the key to aligning (or not) the SBT.

The hat had no hole in it, so theres no way Jerry’s graphic position that shows JC holding his hat upside down BETWEEN  both legs , is possible , because the bullet entered the TOP of JCs right wrist and exited  the BOTTOM of his right hand at the base of the palm.

There’s  only one way possible(imo)  to hold the hat upside down with the  right hand and have no portion of  the hat be in line with the bullet entering the left thigh of JC.

That position is that the well of the upside down hat must be on the Left outer side of the left leg and held in place with the right hand on Top of the rim with mostly just the fingers area  of the hand, while  the lower area of palm of the hand is clear of any portion of the rim.

If This is the the most probable way then it becomes evident that JC most likely had  BOTH his legs turned towards the right as were  his lower torso and his head and his upper shoulder line also oriented at Z223-225

I would hope that the Knotts  lab Scientist technician team would consider examining  this position I’ve proposed as an alternative to their original  positioning of JC to see if the trajectory can be aligned (or not ).

If they still cannot align the trajectory even with this adjustment , and considering some slight deflection of the bullet (slight zigzag) also, THEN I would agree with Royell that the SBT is is improbable, perhaps even approaching impossible.

[Andrew Mason]

How I currently perceive Mason's Pet Theory.

    "The trajectory from the SN through JFK's neck and travelling
     on a 14 degree right to left 18 degree downward path could
     easily have gone to the left side of JBC."

....

    "hit the left thigh if it was out to the left as it likely was
     (he would not sit as you have him with his legs together)"

How do you know that? Hee hee. More likely both knees were towards the car door as he spent much of his time looking to his right.

I see that you have not tried sitting on a seat on the floor with your knees in the air. Unless you are a eunuch, you would sit with legs apart.

[Andrew Mason]

As one might expect, a bullet passing through the soft tissues of a body without directly striking bone should follow a straight line—from the point of entry to the point of exit from where it continues without deviating; however, ballistics has demonstrated that this is not the case.

After the bullet penetrates JFK's back, while it traverses through his body, it probably deviates from a straight line—possibly slightly UPWARD from its initial line and to the RIGHT; but continues in a general downward trajectory as it exits his throat and strikes Governor Connally.

The Knott Laboratory digital reconstruction appears rather convincing until one scrutinises it further. They base their findings on straight-line bullet trajectories from entry to exit that continue without deviation while traversing JFK's neck and continue undeviated after projectile exit. A bullet deviating RIGHT as it exits the throat could account for the discrepancy in their trajectory analysis. So, their determinations are demonstrable fallacies and, therefore, cannot be used as irrefutable evidence to disprove the Single Bullet Theory.

For a bullet to deviate from a straight path a net force must be applied to it (Newton 1).  So it must experience asymmetrical forces to deviate from the straight line path from the rifle.  It does not appear to have struck anything hard in passing through the neck so, as the WC ballistics experts noted, it would leave JFK's throat in a straight line but likely tumbling (as it would have lost rifling in passing through JFK).

After leaving JFK's throat the only forces would have been gravity and air.  It is travelling at about 1200 fps at that point, give or take.   If it is going to change direction in the ensuing 24 inches to JBC's right armpit, it has to do that in 1/600th of a second. 

In 1/600th of a second, gravity will cause it to drop as distance s where: s=gt^2/2=9.8/(2 x 600^2)=1.36 x 10^-5 m which is 13.6 millionths of a metre or .0136 mm ie. nothing.

To actually deflect a 10 g. 1200 fps bullet even one inch over 24 inches (ie. 1/600th of a second) one needs a force much greater than gravity - one that will give it an average lateral speed of 600 inches/sec. In other words, it must go from 0 to 1200 inches/second laterally in 1/600th of a second.  That would require an enormous asymmetrical force.

An unstable bullet will drift an inch or two from a straight line path due to aerodynamic forces and will prescribe a gradual spiral path. But this will occur over tens of yards, not 24 inches. 

This was demonstrated nicely in an American Rifleman article from September 1968:


These results show that the unstable bullet deviated from a straight line path by one inch after passing through 28-32 paper screens. Screen 1 was 25 yards downrange and was after it passed through the destabilizing brush.  Screens 2-22 were 12" apart and screens 23-32 were 20 feet apart.  So 28 screens represents 21+20(7)=161 feet. 32 screens represents 241 feet.

So the idea that the bullet from JFK's neck to the plane of JBC's back will deviate from a straight line by more than a negligible distance - much less than an inch - is fantasy.  This is essentially what ballistics expert Larry SPersonivan told the HSCA (1 HSCA 408):

Mr. FAUNTROY. So it would yaw a little coming through but would be pretty much straight?
Mr. SPersonIVAN. It is still very straight but its angular momentum is such that as it comes out it is turning.
Mr. FAUNTROY. I see.
Mr. SPersonIVAN. OK
Mr. FAUNTROY. Could it have struck another man sitting directly in front of the first man?
Mr. SPersonIVAN. If the initial trajectory had been into that man, yes, because it would not have deviated significantly from its original trajectory.

[Dan O'meara]

There's lot of hype about the Knott Lab laser reconstruction but I can't find an independent analysis or critique of it anywhere.
The pic below shows the culmination of the reconstruction and illustrates their fundamental claim, that the bullet passing through JFK can't be lined up with JBC:



The green line shows the trajectory of the bullet from the SN.
The red line shows the trajectory of the bullet passing through JBC.
Two issues spring out immediately:
1] The Knott reconstruction shows the bullet passing through JFK and hitting JBC (green line). It shows the bullet hitting JBC about 10 inches away from where it should be. The question is - what happened to the bullet they show hitting JBC? We know he wasn't hit in the position they are showing, so what happened to this bullet?
2] The red line, showing the trajectory of the bullet through JBC, seems to be showing that JBC was shot by JFK!! Is that the revolutionary new theory Knott are presenting? It is beyond obvious that their reconstruction shows the bullet that hits JBC in the back MUST pass through JFK first. How do they explain this?

Knott Laboratory don't seem to have taken reality into account. They haven't taken into account that the Z-film shows both men reacting at exactly the same moment. If there were two different bullets, as Knott claims, then JFK must have shot JBC as it is IMPOSSIBLE for a bullet to hit JBC in the back without going through JFK first.
On top of this, their reconstruction shows the moment at z225. By z223 the bullet has passed through both men, crushing JBC's rib on the way through. While this does not really affect the position of JFK (as the bullet passes straight through soft tissue), it radically affects the position of JBC by z225 as his body is responding to the instantaneous physical reaction of the bullet against bone. The right side of his body is thrust forward instantaneously and has twisted to a significant degree by z225.

Below is a still from the Knott reconstruction and it shows that JFK and JBC are sat pretty much one behind the other.



This is simply not the case. JBC was sat far more inboard than this reconstruction shows. The pic taken by Dave Powers demonstrates this clearly.




I'm no image analyst but there seems to be lots of issues with the Knott reconstruction and I don't see where they've had to answer any difficult questions about it.

[Andrew Mason]

There's lot of hype about the Knott Lab laser reconstruction but I can't find an independent analysis or critique of it anywhere.
The pic below shows the culmination of the reconstruction and illustrates their fundamental claim, that the bullet passing through JFK can't be lined up with JBC:



The green line shows the trajectory of the bullet from the SN.
The red line shows the trajectory of the bullet passing through JBC.
Two issues spring out immediately:
1] The Knott reconstruction shows the bullet passing through JFK and hitting JBC (green line). It shows the bullet hitting JBC about 10 inches away from where it should be. The question is - what happened to the bullet they show hitting JBC? We know he wasn't hit in the position they are showing, so what happened to this bullet?
2] The red line, showing the trajectory of the bullet through JBC, seems to be showing that JBC was shot by JFK!! Is that the revolutionary new theory Knott are presenting? It is beyond obvious that their reconstruction shows the bullet that hits JBC in the back MUST pass through JFK first. How do they explain this?

Knott Laboratory don't seem to have taken reality into account. They haven't taken into account that the Z-film shows both men reacting at exactly the same moment. If there were two different bullets, as Knott claims, then JFK must have shot JBC as it is IMPOSSIBLE for a bullet to hit JBC in the back without going through JFK first.
On top of this, their reconstruction shows the moment at z225. By z223 the bullet has passed through both men, crushing JBC's rib on the way through. While this does not really affect the position of JFK (as the bullet passes straight through soft tissue), it radically affects the position of JBC by z225 as his body is responding to the instantaneous physical reaction of the bullet against bone. The right side of his body is thrust forward instantaneously and has twisted to a significant degree by z225.

Below is a still from the Knott reconstruction and it shows that JFK and JBC are sat pretty much one behind the other.



This is simply not the case. JBC was sat far more inboard than this reconstruction shows. The pic taken by Dave Powers demonstrates this clearly.




I'm no image analyst but there seems to be lots of issues with the Knott reconstruction and I don't see where they've had to answer any difficult questions about it.

You seem to be starting with the assumption that the SBT is correct and occurred about z225 and criticizing Knott for disagreeing with you.

Knott Labs took all the physical evidence and made an accurate model not only of Dealey Plaza, but of the car and its position and direction on the street at each frame.  They then determined the trajectory to see if a shot from the SN could possibly have gone through both men as the SBT says.  They conclude that, based on the physical evidence, position and direction of the car and the distances between the two men as they were seated, that JBC would have to have been in the position shown at z225 and concluded that the path would have struck JBC farther left than he was actually struck:

So they conclude that the SBT could not have occurred at z225 according to the trajectory from the SN through JFK unless JBC was seated where they show.  So they tried it at z210 to see if it worked.  And it did not at z210 either.

I believe that they have mis-labelled the z210 and z225 trajectory images because the position of JBC in the right frame labelled Z225 has him turned to the right side, which is not the position that JBC was in at z225.  Rather that was the position before he disappeared behind the sign.  The position shown in the frame labelled Z210 has him facing forward, as he was in z225 but not z210:

[Dan O'meara]

You seem to be starting with the assumption that the SBT is correct and occurred about z225 and criticizing Knott for disagreeing with you.

Knott Labs took all the physical evidence and made an accurate model not only of Dealey Plaza, but of the car and its position and direction on the street at each frame.  They then determined the trajectory to see if a shot from the SN could possibly have gone through both men as the SBT says.  They conclude that, based on the physical evidence, position and direction of the car and the distances between the two men as they were seated, that JBC would have to have been in the position shown at z225 and concluded that the path would have struck JBC farther left than he was actually struck:

So they conclude that the SBT could not have occurred at z225 according to the trajectory from the SN through JFK unless JBC was seated where they show.  So they tried it at z210 to see if it worked.  And it did not at z210 either.

I believe that they have mis-labelled the z210 and z225 trajectory images because the position of JBC in the right frame labelled Z225 has him turned to the right side, which is not the position that JBC was in at z225.  Rather that was the position before he disappeared behind the sign.  The position shown in the frame labelled Z210 has him facing forward, as he was in z225 but not z210:

There is no doubt JFK is shot through the throat between z-frames 222 and 223. I'm asking a simple question - where did the bullet go that Knott Labs have striking JBC's back?
There is also no doubt that the Z-film shows both men having radical reactions at exactly the same moment, a reality the Knott Labs model fails to explain.
And the trajectory for JBC's wounds seems to be showing that he was shot by JFK!! A new theory that holds about as much water as your own truly dead and buried theory.

I believe that they have mis-labelled the z210 and z225

Isn't this a clue to how poor this model is?