When Was JBC Hit?

[Steve Barber]

Thanks Steve, that’s a very clear sequence of frames and it shows the double shoulder movement as you describe. It also shows JFK’s concurrent reactions, JBC’s jacket front flipping out, and JBC’s right hand and arm moving rapidly upwards. All of this happens in a small fraction of a second. It sure looks to me like this is where both JFK and JBC were struck with CE 399.

  My pleasure, Charles.  I'm you are able to see the "hunching" of the shoulders.  It was David Von Pein  who first pointed this out, although I didn't know that he had until after I saw it, and I started a thread in a JFK group and included this gif a long while back, and he posted a note informing us that he had found this himself, and had also posted a gif of it. 
I agree with you all the way that this is further proof of both men reacting simutaneously by the same bullet.  Thanks so much!

[Andrew Mason]

  My pleasure, Charles.  I'm you are able to see the "hunching" of the shoulders.  It was David Von Pein  who first pointed this out, although I didn't know that he had until after I saw it, and I started a thread in a JFK group and included this gif a long while back, and he posted a note informing us that he had found this himself, and had also posted a gif of it. 
I agree with you all the way that this is further proof of both men reacting simutaneously by the same bullet.  Thanks so much!

I don’t dispute that they are reacting at the same time to the same shot. I just disagree that the evidence supports it being the second shot.

[Steve Barber]

I don’t dispute that they are reacting at the same time to the same shot. I just disagree that the evidence supports it being the second shot.

  One of the three shots missed the target.  We know that both men were struck where the film shows them being struck. Energing from behind the stemmons sign, and the fatal shot.
This leaves only one other shot, and that shot had to have been fired early, like around Zapruder frame 155/156. 

 A. Zapruder's camera jiggle proves that a shot was fired there.
 B. The sudden head turns of both JFK and Governor Connally-both of whom were looking to their left. And one thing most people do not notice is that Connally was looking to his right
when Zapruder first began filming, turned to his left, then suddenlly jerked his head back to the right, where his head remained turned during the entire travel down Elm Street until he comes out from behind the sign, which is the first motion he made-other than taking his right hand off the top of the side rail of the car. 

   This is exactly what the Zapruder film shows.  Three sudden reactions to three rifle shot sounds.

[Jack Nessan]

  One of the three shots missed the target.  We know that both men were struck where the film shows them being struck. Energing from behind the stemmons sign, and the fatal shot.
This leaves only one other shot, and that shot had to have been fired early, like around Zapruder frame 155/156. 

 A. Zapruder's camera jiggle proves that a shot was fired there.
 B. The sudden head turns of both JFK and Governor Connally-both of whom were looking to their left. And one thing most people do not notice is that Connally was looking to his right
when Zapruder first began filming, turned to his left, then suddenlly jerked his head back to the right, where his head remained turned during the entire travel down Elm Street until he comes out from behind the sign, which is the first motion he made-other than taking his right hand off the top of the side rail of the car. 

   This is exactly what the Zapruder film shows.  Three sudden reactions to three rifle shot sounds.

The physical evidence does not support three shots. The FBI only noted two of the three shells found in the SN exhibited the “chambering mark” from the rifle. CE 543 did not have the indentation. Even the unfired cartridge exhibited the chambering mark along with the next thirty shells, as was noted by Josiah Thompson, that had been fired in the rifle.

Zapruder--Reactions and Jiggle Analysis? Zapruder is a two shot witness.

[Steve Barber]

The physical evidence does not support three shots. The FBI only noted two of the three shells found in the SN exhibited the “chambering mark” from the rifle. CE 543 did not have the indentation. Even the unfired cartridge exhibited the chambering mark along with the next thirty shells, as was noted by Josiah Thompson, that had been fired in the rifle.

Zapruder--Reactions and Jiggle Analysis? Zapruder is a two shot witness.

  Wrong, the physical evidence DOES support 3 shots, but you go ahead and believe that there are not three distinct sudden physical motions by both men in the limousine. Your credibilty is a stake.

   Zapruder's camera doesn't lie.   Zapruder wasn't counting the shots as they went off, and within hours of the assassination, he didn't know for sure that he heard 2 or 3 shots.  Watch his interview with Jay Watson, WFAA-TV.  "...[T]hen I heard another shot or two..."  after having earlier seen the "president slump to the side-like this".   Zapruder was a two or three shot witness. 

[Andrew Mason]

  One of the three shots missed the target.

If that was the case then the SBT would be correct.  But if that were the case why are they so many witnesses who recalled that JFK reacted immediately to the first shot by doing things we don’t see him doing until after he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign? why are there so many witnesses who said the last two shots were in rapid succession? why are witnesses consistent with the first shot being after z186 (Betzner) after the VP car had completed the turn and going downhill? An instant before z202 (Philip Willis)? etc?

We know that both men were struck where the film shows them being struck.

“We” don’t know that. John Connally said he knew that was not the case. Nellie C. as well. At least three members of the WC didn’t believe it and none of those that did said they thought it was the second shot.

A. Zapruder's camera jiggle proves that a shot was fired there.

There are at least 8 jiggles. Besides, there would have to be 2 frames between the bullet strike and the sound arriving at Zapruder’s ears and then a frame or two to react.

B. The sudden head turns of both JFK and Governor Connally-both of whom were looking to their left. And one thing most people do not notice is that Connally was looking to his right
when Zapruder first began filming, turned to his left, then suddenlly jerked his head back to the right, where his head remained turned during the entire travel down Elm Street until he comes out from behind the sign, which is the first motion he made-other than taking his right hand off the top of the side rail of the car.

And Mary Woodward said that she shouted at the President as he approached and he and Jackie turned to their right and the President acknowledged them as the car passed by. She was certain they were the last people he acknowledged before that first horrible ear-shattering noise.

[Charles Collins]

If that was the case then the SBT would be correct.  But if that were the case why are they so many witnesses who recalled that JFK reacted immediately to the first shot by doing things we don’t see him doing until after he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign? why are there so many witnesses who said the last two shots were in rapid succession? why are witnesses consistent with the first shot being after z186 (Betzner) after the VP car had completed the turn and going downhill? An instant before z202 (Philip Willis)? etc?

“We” don’t know that. John Connally said he knew that was not the case. Nellie C. as well. At least three members of the WC didn’t believe it and none of those that did said they thought it was the second shot.
There are at least 8 jiggles. Besides, there would have to be 2 frames between the bullet strike and the sound arriving at Zapruder’s ears and then a frame or two to react.
And Mary Woodward said that she shouted at the President as he approached and he and Jackie turned to their right and the President acknowledged them as the car passed by. She was certain they were the last people he acknowledged before that first horrible ear-shattering noise.

The Warren Commission said that they were unable to conclude which one of the three shots missed. The HSCA concluded that the first shot missed. I tend to agree with the first shot missed theory, and have found numerous items that suggest that this theory is correct. However, I have not been convinced beyond a reasonable doubt.

 I have not yet given the idea of the third shot missing very much consideration. This is mostly due to my opinion that it does not make any sense for someone to shoot again, after seeing JFK’s head explode. But I do consider that it is possible that there was a third shot that missed. Charles Brehm indicated that he thought that the third shot missed everything. In my imagination, I suppose that if LHO was firing and cycling the bolt as fast as he could, that he might automatically cycle the bolt after the head shot. Then after seeing JFK had gone down and Jackie was crawling on the trunk lid, he might have instinctively not wanted to shoot Jackie and moved his aim away from her. And if he had his finger on the trigger, it is feasible that he inadvertently fired the third shot over the limo. These are just some ideas that I have had. Perhaps a closer look at a possible third shot miss is in order?

[Zeon Mason]

If theres any agreement that Z224 was the 1st shot , then there was about 4.8 secs for 2nd shot head shot followed 1-2 sec later by a 3rd shot that missed high and struck the curb near Tague.

That would certainly preserve the 1….2..3 spacing as majority heard by witness.

The other alternative .. a missed 1st shot that precedes the Z224 2nd shot, is difficult to fit in between Betzner Z186 and Willis Z205 which is the approx Z195 -200 range, because that’s 1.5 sec between 1st and 2nd Z224  shot , therefore not likely both shots to be fired by the same MC rifle.

Now maybe Charles could be on the right track to suggest a shot that was very close just after the Z313 head shot .
A 3rd MC rifle shot not aimed, just loaded fast as possible and fired high, perhaps in 2.0 secs?

It could be the same phenomenon of memory that witness could hear 2 shots spaced only 2 secs apart as “back to back” because of the longer preceding gap of silence of 4.8 secs between Z224 and Z313.

My pet (CT) theory is a solitary  shooter used a semi auto rifle and that after he waited the 4.8 secs after shooting 1st shot at Z224 , he intended to shoot shots 2&3 as rapid final shots and that 2nd shot at Z313 hit while the 3rd shot about 0.5-1 sec later,  went high due to muzzle rise effect when firing a semi auto rapidly.

From a CT perspective, this resolves the reason for the chain of custody issues and insignificant deformation of CE 399 because the bullet witness saw on the stretcher, WAS a pointed bullet and NOT the ball nosed 6.5 mm MC bullet. That bullet went to FBI and was switched with CE 399 later after a false report made attributed to FBI  agent Odum because the witness did NOT identify CE 399.

It’s kind of same thing the WC did  with V.Adams and Lovelady/Shelley, changing things a bit to make their theory fit.