When Was JBC Hit?

[Charles Collins]

The issue is whether a shot through JFK could have passed directly to JBC’s thigh. I am suggesting that it did because there is consistent evidence that it occurred on the first shot and that this occurred between z190 and z200, and very strong evidence that JBC was not hit in the back by it.  Since we know that it exited JFK’s throat and would have continued in a straight line and did not hit the car, and since the thigh wound is consistent with being caused by a strike from the butt end of CE399, I am suggesting that it must have struck JBC’s thigh.  That means his left knee was out a bit to the left side.

One does not contest such an assertion by saying that both JBC’s legs may have been to the right. One has to show that the facts on which it is based are necessarily in conflict with the preponderance of the evidence.

In any event, if you sit on a cushion on the floor with your feet on the floor immediately in front of you, you will see that the natural position for a man’s legs would be for them to be spread apart. Try it. You’ll see.  With the right leg constrained by the right door, the left leg is out to the left.

I was not contesting your idea. You have been asserting this nonsense for many years and I haven’t seen one person even coming close to saying he agrees with it. I was pointing out that JBC told us why he turned to his right. And that his reason is not the same as your imagined idea of why he turned to the right. JFK had leaned forward. We can see it when he emerges from behind the sign. Charles Brehm also said JFK was leaning forward. I believe that the lean forward by JFK is the reason (not that JFK was any further to his left) that JBC didn’t see JFK out of the corner of his eye when he instinctively turned to his right.
By the way, JBC wasn’t sitting cross legged on the floor (or doing more 25 or 6 to 4). Many years ago under a different screen name I did an experiment and posted photos on this forum and discussed it with you. The photos and discussion all disappeared along with all the other data when the website went down. My old computer is gone also, so I no longer have the photos. I set up a chair leaned back at the appropriate angle and put something in front of the chair to simulate the correct height of the chair above the floor of the limo. I suggest you try something similar that simulates the conditions in the limo better than just a cushion on the floor.
 There are many reasons your idea is nonsense. Among them are the velocity of the bullet after it exited JFK’s neck was too high to only cause a slight wound, and that JBC would have felt it if he had been shot in the left thigh when you think he was. But he didn’t. You continue to deny the evidence against your idea. You still haven’t provided any response to the fact that JBC testified that he turned back to his right after he was shot. However, in your scenario JBC does not turn back to his right after he was shot in the back. This is because, as we can see in the Z-film, (JBC had already turned back to his right before the time that you think he was shot in the back.

[Andrew Mason]

I was not contesting your idea. You have been asserting this nonsense for many years and I haven’t seen one person even coming close to saying he agrees with it.

You are contesting it.  But you don't challenge the evidence that supports it.  You maintain a theory that requires JFK to not react to the first shot for several seconds and to smile and wave for several seconds afterward, despite the lack of a single witness who recalled seeing that and dozens who said he reacted quickly.  You insist that JBC was hit in the back by the same bullet that struck JFK despite not having a single witness who said that occurred and JBC, Nellie, Powers, Gayle Newman, Hickey and Greer who gave evidence that it did not. And you ignore the vast majority of witnesses who recalled the shot pattern with the last two shots close together.

I was pointing out that JBC told us why he turned to his right. And that his reason is not the same as your imagined idea of why he turned to the right.

I was just responding to Mr. Zeon's suggesting that he turned to the right because his legs were to the right.  JBC said he turned around to check on JFK.  Why would he have first turned to his left to see JFK?

JFK had leaned forward. 
 We can see it when he emerges from behind the sign. Charles Brehm also said JFK was leaning forward. I believe that the lean forward by JFK is the reason (not that JFK was any further to his left) that JBC didn’t see JFK out of the corner of his eye when he instinctively turned to his right.

That makes no sense. When do we see JFK leaning forward prior to z224?  When are you suggesting that JBC turned around to try to see JFK?   

By the way, JBC wasn’t sitting cross legged on the floor (or doing more 25 or 6 to 4). Many years ago under a different screen name I did an experiment and posted photos on this forum and discussed it with you. The photos and discussion all disappeared along with all the other data when the website went down. My old computer is gone also, so I no longer have the photos. I set up a chair leaned back at the appropriate angle and put something in front of the chair to simulate the correct height of the chair above the floor of the limo. I suggest you try something similar that simulates the conditions in the limo better than just a cushion on the floor.

So long as the knees are well above the hips, that is all you need.  The legs will be apart. Try it.

There are many reasons your idea is nonsense. Among them are the velocity of the bullet after it exited JFK’s neck was too high to only cause a slight wound, and that JBC would have felt it if he had been shot in the left thigh when you think he was.

Was it a slight wound or a wound that he must have felt?  Dr. Shires said it went down to the femur.  Obviously, you think he was wrong. I don't.   You can't say he must have felt it because a. he didn't and b. many people who are shot do not feel it.  You have yet to respond to the video I posted.  Here is another:

Here is a quote from the narrator beginning around 1:15: "Many people recount that within the first few moments of being hit by a bullet they didn't feel anything at all."

But he didn’t. You continue to deny the evidence against your idea. You still haven’t provided any response to the fact that JBC testified that he turned back to his right after he was shot. However, in your scenario JBC does not turn back to his right after he was shot in the back. This is because, as we can see in the Z-film, (JBC had already turned back to his right before the time that you think he was shot in the back.

You disagree with much of what the Connallys said.  I just disagree with a few minor details.  JBC himself said he was not sure where he was facing when hit in the back.  He recalled deciding to turn to his left to check on JFK and thought he was facing forward when hit.  I do not think that he was correct in that statement.  Neither did Nellie. She said he was turned to the right when hit. 

[Jack Nessan]

You are contesting it.  But you don't challenge the evidence that supports it.  You maintain a theory that requires JFK to not react to the first shot for several seconds and to smile and wave for several seconds afterward, despite the lack of a single witness who recalled seeing that and dozens who said he reacted quickly.  You insist that JBC was hit in the back by the same bullet that struck JFK despite not having a single witness who said that occurred and JBC, Nellie, Powers, Gayle Newman, Hickey and Greer who gave evidence that it did not. And you ignore the vast majority of witnesses who recalled the shot pattern with the last two shots close together.
I was just responding to Mr. Zeon's suggesting that he turned to the right because his legs were to the right.  JBC said he turned around to check on JFK.  Why would he have first turned to his left to see JFK?
That makes no sense. When do we see JFK leaning forward prior to z224?  When are you suggesting that JBC turned around to try to see JFK?   

So long as the knees are well above the hips, that is all you need.  The legs will be apart. Try it.

Was it a slight wound or a wound that he must have felt?  Dr. Shires said it went down to the femur.  Obviously, you think he was wrong. I don't.   You can't say he must have felt it because a. he didn't and b. many people who are shot do not feel it.  You have yet to respond to the video I posted.  Here is another:

Here is a quote from the narrator beginning around 1:15: "Many people recount that within the first few moments of being hit by a bullet they didn't feel anything at all."
You disagree with much of what the Connallys said.  I just disagree with a few minor details.  JBC himself said he was not sure where he was facing when hit in the back.  He recalled deciding to turn to his left to check on JFK and thought he was facing forward when hit.  I do not think that he was correct in that statement.  Neither did Nellie. She said he was turned to the right when hit.

  A Mason---“You insist that JBC was hit in the back by the same bullet that struck JFK despite not having a single witness who said that occurred”

Not true. Bill Newman heard the first shot and could not tell which man was hit first. DPD Hargis, Nellie, and Jackie all referenced him being struck by the first shot. In all your “following the evidence” nonsense you conveniently ignore this fact. A large number of eyewitnesses state the car accelerated after the second shot, this includes SA Kellerman. Another fact that is a casualty of this bizarre theory. The eyewitnesses' by referencing JFK in relation to where they were standing also place the first shot after Z207. Nothing in the whole assassination even remotely supports what you have constantly been proposing.

[Steve Barber]

 It seems to me that Andrew Mason and others who don't believe that JBC and JFK were struck with the same bullet--and/or other reasons because of JBC's reactions--are either unaware, have forgotten about, or just don't know that Governor Connally did STRANGE, unreal things after being shot, that appear in both the Nix and Zapruder films.  Although difficult to see in the Orville Nix film after the fatal shot was fired, according to the Zappruder film, plus Mrs. JBC's testimony JBC falls or is pulled to his left by his wife, and stayed low for only a second before he raised back up and turned to look to the rear into the back seat as we lose him behind the foliage from the pyracantha bush bwtween Zapruder and the limousine.   After two seconds pass, he comes back into view once again, just before the limousine disappears beneath the underpass.

 I first wrote about this in 1999 titled which John McAdams published on his Website.  https://www.jfk-assassination.net/looking.htm    Years later, a researcher named Gerda Dunckel released a video on YouTube titled " Zapruder Stabilized JFK Or Connally?", in which she stabillized the Zapruder film beginning with frame 221 and continuing until the final frame of the film, with her focus on John Connally by placing "Crosshairs" over his image in the film, and asking the question about who is sitting erect-JFK or the governor-as the limousine approaches the underpass.  View the video here:

  Did the governor ever once mention rising back up in his seat?   No.  Not until the car reached Parkland Hospital, when he said he "Heaved himself up" to get out of the way of the people trying to reach JFK.  Obviously, the governor went into some type of shock upon being struck by the bullet he received.  Why else would he never mention sitting completely erect in his seat as the limousine entered the triple underpass, or again, as early as while Mrs. Kennedy is rising from the back seat to exit the limousine?  People suffering with being in shock have been known to do very unusual and dangerous things.  Mrs. Kennedy's actions captured in both the Zapruder and Nix films after the fatal shot is a prime example, and so is what the governor did. He knew someone was shooting at the occupants of the limousine, yet he did not make an attempt to get himself out of harms way.

 In a nutshell, I think it's impossible to rely strictly on Governor Connally's description of the shooting, when the Zapruder film shows some of the opposite of what he said he did.
The first sudden reaction seen by JBC upon entering Elm Street is his head turn from right to left.  Then, within 1/4 of a second, snap his head back to his right, where he remained transfixed the rest of the way down the street until he emrges from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign, when his shoulders hunch twice in rapid succession as the second shot/bullet strikes him in the back after exiting JFK's throat.   Both men can be seen reacting violently and simultaneously in the Zapruder film, meaning one bullet struck both men. 

[Charles Collins]

 It seems to me that Andrew Mason and others who don't believe that JBC and JFK were struck with the same bullet--and/or other reasons because of JBC's reactions--are either unaware, have forgotten about, or just don't know that Governor Connally did STRANGE, unreal things after being shot, that appear in both the Nix and Zapruder films.  Although difficult to see in the Orville Nix film after the fatal shot was fired, according to the Zappruder film, plus Mrs. JBC's testimony JBC falls or is pulled to his left by his wife, and stayed low for only a second before he raised back up and turned to look to the rear into the back seat as we lose him behind the foliage from the pyracantha bush bwtween Zapruder and the limousine.   After two seconds pass, he comes back into view once again, just before the limousine disappears beneath the underpass.

 I first wrote about this in 1999 titled which John McAdams published on his Website.  https://www.jfk-assassination.net/looking.htm    Years later, a researcher named Gerda Dunckel released a video on YouTube titled " Zapruder Stabilized JFK Or Connally?", in which she stabillized the Zapruder film beginning with frame 221 and continuing until the final frame of the film, with her focus on John Connally by placing "Crosshairs" over his image in the film, and asking the question about who is sitting erect-JFK or the governor-as the limousine approaches the underpass.  View the video here:

  Did the governor ever once mention rising back up in his seat?   No.  Not until the car reached Parkland Hospital, when he said he "Heaved himself up" to get out of the way of the people trying to reach JFK.  Obviously, the governor went into some type of shock upon being struck by the bullet he received.  Why else would he never mention sitting completely erect in his seat as the limousine entered the triple underpass, or again, as early as while Mrs. Kennedy is rising from the back seat to exit the limousine?  People suffering with being in shock have been known to do very unusual and dangerous things.  Mrs. Kennedy's actions captured in both the Zapruder and Nix films after the fatal shot is a prime example, and so is what the governor did. He knew someone was shooting at the occupants of the limousine, yet he did not make an attempt to get himself out of harms way.

 In a nutshell, I think it's impossible to rely strictly on Governor Connally's description of the shooting, when the Zapruder film shows some of the opposite of what he said he did.
The first sudden reaction seen by JBC upon entering Elm Street is his head turn from right to left.  Then, within 1/4 of a second, snap his head back to his right, where he remained transfixed the rest of the way down the street until he emrges from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign, when his shoulders hunch twice in rapid succession as the second shot/bullet strikes him in the back after exiting JFK's throat.   Both men can be seen reacting violently and simultaneously in the Zapruder film, meaning one bullet struck both men.

Thanks Steve! I have seen some of Gerda’s excellent work. But I had never seen this video before. It is another excellent one and it is interesting because it does conflict with what JBC said.

[Charles Collins]

You are contesting it.  But you don't challenge the evidence that supports it.  You maintain a theory that requires JFK to not react to the first shot for several seconds and to smile and wave for several seconds afterward, despite the lack of a single witness who recalled seeing that and dozens who said he reacted quickly.  You insist that JBC was hit in the back by the same bullet that struck JFK despite not having a single witness who said that occurred and JBC, Nellie, Powers, Gayle Newman, Hickey and Greer who gave evidence that it did not. And you ignore the vast majority of witnesses who recalled the shot pattern with the last two shots close together.
I was just responding to Mr. Zeon's suggesting that he turned to the right because his legs were to the right.  JBC said he turned around to check on JFK.  Why would he have first turned to his left to see JFK?
That makes no sense. When do we see JFK leaning forward prior to z224?  When are you suggesting that JBC turned around to try to see JFK?   

So long as the knees are well above the hips, that is all you need.  The legs will be apart. Try it.

Was it a slight wound or a wound that he must have felt?  Dr. Shires said it went down to the femur.  Obviously, you think he was wrong. I don't.   You can't say he must have felt it because a. he didn't and b. many people who are shot do not feel it.  You have yet to respond to the video I posted.  Here is another:

Here is a quote from the narrator beginning around 1:15: "Many people recount that within the first few moments of being hit by a bullet they didn't feel anything at all."
You disagree with much of what the Connallys said.  I just disagree with a few minor details.  JBC himself said he was not sure where he was facing when hit in the back.  He recalled deciding to turn to his left to check on JFK and thought he was facing forward when hit.  I do not think that he was correct in that statement.  Neither did Nellie. She said he was turned to the right when hit.

You maintain a theory that requires JFK to not react to the first shot for several seconds and to smile and wave for several seconds afterward, despite the lack of a single witness who recalled seeing that and dozens who said he reacted quickly.

The Warren Commission indicated that they could not determine which shot missed. Although I have indicated that I believe that the first shot missed, I have not closed my mind to other possibilities. If another one of the shots missed, the reaction of JFK would fit with the witness accounts that you cite. That would make much more sense than your idea does.


You insist that JBC was hit in the back by the same bullet that struck JFK despite not having a single witness who said that occurred and JBC, Nellie, Powers, Gayle Newman, Hickey and Greer who gave evidence that it did not.

Charles Brehm was one of the closest witnesses and he said he came up with the single bullet idea right away. When the Warren Report came out and confirmed his idea, he felt that they got it right. So, please correct yourself regarding “not a single witness who said…” Also, even JBC said in his book that he could be wrong, and he is the one who was shot.


And you ignore the vast majority of witnesses who recalled the shot pattern with the last two shots close together.

If there was a first shot miss that occurred near Z133, as some evidence suggests, then that pattern would be okay. Also, many of the witness accounts indicate the last two shots extremely close together. I suggest that those accounts are people who heard the bullet impact before the sound of the muzzle blast reached them. Therefore, those accounts should not be counted as hearing three separate shots.



JBC said he turned around to check on JFK.

Actually JBC’s testimony is that he turned as an instinctive reaction to the sound of the shot. Then when he didn’t catch JFK in the corner of his eye, he started to turn the other way in order to look over his left shoulder.


When do we see JFK leaning forward prior to z224?  When are you suggesting that JBC turned around to try to see JFK?

Some people claim that JFK turned his head sharply to the left just before he disappears behind the sign (see Don Roberdeaux’s map notes). Personally, I have not been able to discern this. However, if he did, this could be the beginning of his reaction to a shot. It appears to me that JBC described a very quick instinctive reaction to the shot, and that it could have simply been a head turn (he was already facing partially to his right) while he was obscured behind the sign, in the Z-film. Again, JBC tells us that his reaction was an instinctive reaction to the sound of the shot (not an intentional turn in order to check on JFK). It was only because he didn’t see JFK out of the corner of his eye during that instinctive reaction that he decided to turn to try to see JFK.


So long as the knees are well above the hips, that is all you need.  The legs will be apart. Try it.

I have, and I disagree with you completely.



Dr. Shires said it went down to the femur.

Not the bullet, only a very small particle [that was shed off of the bullet]. He said the bullet only penetrated as far as the muscle (just below the skin).


You can't say he must have felt it because a. he didn't and b. many people who are shot do not feel it.

He also said he didn’t feel his wrist being shattered and only discovered that injury when he woke up in the hospital after the surgery. The reason is because of his back/chest wounds.

[Charles Collins]

You are contesting it.  But you don't challenge the evidence that supports it.  You maintain a theory that requires JFK to not react to the first shot for several seconds and to smile and wave for several seconds afterward, despite the lack of a single witness who recalled seeing that and dozens who said he reacted quickly.  You insist that JBC was hit in the back by the same bullet that struck JFK despite not having a single witness who said that occurred and JBC, Nellie, Powers, Gayle Newman, Hickey and Greer who gave evidence that it did not. And you ignore the vast majority of witnesses who recalled the shot pattern with the last two shots close together.
I was just responding to Mr. Zeon's suggesting that he turned to the right because his legs were to the right.  JBC said he turned around to check on JFK.  Why would he have first turned to his left to see JFK?
That makes no sense. When do we see JFK leaning forward prior to z224?  When are you suggesting that JBC turned around to try to see JFK?   

So long as the knees are well above the hips, that is all you need.  The legs will be apart. Try it.

Was it a slight wound or a wound that he must have felt?  Dr. Shires said it went down to the femur.  Obviously, you think he was wrong. I don't.   You can't say he must have felt it because a. he didn't and b. many people who are shot do not feel it.  You have yet to respond to the video I posted.  Here is another:

Here is a quote from the narrator beginning around 1:15: "Many people recount that within the first few moments of being hit by a bullet they didn't feel anything at all."
You disagree with much of what the Connallys said.  I just disagree with a few minor details.  JBC himself said he was not sure where he was facing when hit in the back.  He recalled deciding to turn to his left to check on JFK and thought he was facing forward when hit.  I do not think that he was correct in that statement.  Neither did Nellie. She said he was turned to the right when hit.

He recalled deciding to turn to his left to check on JFK and thought he was facing forward when hit.  I do not think that he was correct in that statement.  Neither did Nellie. She said he was turned to the right when hit.

And here is where the theory that you seem to be infatuated with can be applied properly. JBC testified that he was in the process of turning when he felt the “fist” hit him in the back. It appears possible to me that JBC is already in the process of turning as he reappears from behind the sign in the Z-film. It might have taken a very short time for that pain to “register” in his consciousness. Also, if you watch Nellie in Jerry’s closeup slow motion GIF, she first looks back at JFK and then looks at JBC after seeing JFK’s reaction. She might not have realized that JBC had already been shot if she didn’t see his initial reaction (around Z224).

[Mitch Todd]

Dr. Shires said it went down to the femur.

That's not what Shaw actually said. He said that he debrided tissue "down to the region of the femur."

"The region of the femur" is a non-specific phrase that could mean anywhere relatively close to the bone. More importantly, he's the guy digging the hole that deep. The bullet wound is generally not as deep as the debrided volume around it, and as any Fackler will tell you, surgeons were in the habit of over-treating these wounds by removing too much tissue.