When Was JBC Hit?

[Andrew Mason]

But it is not just Connolly who puts the first two shots that far apart.

Connally doesn't put the shots that far apart.

Well, he put all 3 shots 10 to 12 seconds apart and estimated the time between the first two at 2 seconds and enough time for him to recognize it as a rifle shot, form the conclusion that an assassination was occurring and decide to turn around to check on the President.

My point is that it is not necessary to have Connally tell us how long it was between shots #1 and#2.  We have many others who recalled a longer pause between the first two with the third coming in rapid succession after the second. Connally is only one witness and his recollection conflicts with those of dozens of others.

His first impressions are that the two events are a split second apart.
His recollection of the event slows time down.
But at no time does he put the shots over four seconds apart.
Automatic rifle.
Two or three shooters.
My God, it was quick.
A split second.

Yet you want to ignore his later statement that it was not less than a second and closer to two.

[Charles Collins]

But he heard the first shot before he felt the bullet hit him in the back.  If two events happened from the same shot, the sound reaching his ear would have happened after the bullet hit his back/armpit.

At the distance involved, it takes less than 1/10 of one second difference in time for the bullet to reach the target vs the time for the sound of the muzzle blast to reach the target. A blink of an eye takes about three times that amount of time.

I am trying to describe the perceived amount of time between when he heard the shot (so what if it was less than 1/10 of a second after it actually hit him) and the time that he actually FELT the hit in his back. His perception of that amount of time might also have been distorted due to his instinctual reaction (the amygdala in his brain taking control) as Dan and myself have been describing earlier in this thread.


 Isn’t it you that claims he wouldn’t (if your idea were true) have felt a shot to his leg for over 4-seconds? Why would less than 1/10 of a second make a difference in your way of thinking?

The fact is that JBC himself later said it is possible that they were hit by the same bullet.

[Dan O'meara]

Well, he put all 3 shots 10 to 12 seconds apart and estimated the time between the first two at 2 seconds and enough time for him to recognize it as a rifle shot, form the conclusion that an assassination was occurring and decide to turn around to check on the President.

My point is that it is not necessary to have Connally tell us how long it was between shots #1 and#2.  We have many others who recalled a longer pause between the first two with the third coming in rapid succession after the second. Connally is only one witness and his recollection conflicts with those of dozens of others.
Yet you want to ignore his later statement that it was not less than a second and closer to two.

My point is that it is not necessary to have Connally tell us how long it was between shots #1 and#2.

Mason Untruth #1
This was not your point at all. The false point you were making was that Connally put the two events over four seconds apart. You were saying that he wasn't the only witness who spaced the shots that far apart. You were not telling the truth.

Yet you want to ignore his later statement that it was not less than a second and closer to two.

Mason Untruth #2
I have posted in detail about Connally's recollections of the shooting. I have not left out a single thing he has said. The arguments I have presented explain all his statements in the context of someone recalling a traumatic, life-threatening event. I have ignored nothing.
You, on the other hand, ignore nearly every statement he made except the couple that suit the needs of your demented theory.
You ignore the evidence presented for the "temporal distortions" that accompany the recollection of traumatic events.
As usual, in your extremely untruthful way, you ignore everything except the cherry-picked scraps you pin on to the shambles you call a theory.
Your disdain for the evidence is striking.

[Andrew Mason]

My point is that it is not necessary to have Connally tell us how long it was between shots #1 and#2.

Mason Untruth #1
This was not your point at all. The false point you were making was that Connally put the two events over four seconds apart. You were saying that he wasn't the only witness who spaced the shots that far apart. You were not telling the truth.

What I should have said, just so you would not be confused, is that it is not just up to Connally to put that much time between the shots.

Connally is not consistent in his estimate of the time between shots. That’s not surprising. He was thinking about other things than counting the seconds.

 I have previously pointed out that JBC said the first two were 2 seconds apart and NOT literally a split second apart.  He also said on yet another occasion that all three took 10 to 12 seconds. He always said that heard the first shot and, after turning around to check on JFK, decided to turn back to the left.  How long does that take? 4 seconds. I don’t know. Maybe.

So we look at other witnesses who are consistent.

But your point, if I understand your theory correctly, is that there was no time between the shot he heard and the shot that hit him in the back ie. they were the same shot.  But JBC never said anything close to that. He always insisted they were separate shots.  You cannot use an argument to change his evidence to mean the opposite of what he meant.

[Andrew Mason]

At the distance involved, it takes less than 1/10 of one second difference in time for the bullet to reach the target vs the time for the sound of the muzzle blast to reach the target. A blink of an eye takes about three times that amount of time.

I am trying to describe the perceived amount of time between when he heard the shot (so what if it was less than 1/10 of a second after it actually hit him) and the time that he actually FELT the hit in his back. His perception of that amount of time might also have been distorted due to his instinctual reaction (the amygdala in his brain taking control) as Dan and myself have been describing earlier in this thread.

Your theory would also have to explain why he reversed the order of the two events that he distinctly recalled: hearing a rifle shot then feeling the hit.  It would also help if there was evidence to support the theory.

Isn’t it you that claims he wouldn’t (if your idea were true) have felt a shot to his leg for over 4-seconds? Why would less than 1/10 of a second make a difference in your way of thinking?

I said that in many cases bullets are often not felt.    In this case, we have JBC describing the moment of impact because he felt it. Not pain. He felt impact.   I suggest that he felt it because it was a pristine 2000 fps 10 gram bullet hitting bone.  But that doesn't matter.   The evidence from JBC is that he felt it and the evidence from Nellie is that he recoiled from it and that it was the second shot.  The thigh wound was an oblique wound caused by a tumbling lower speed bullet striking the thigh butt-first and not interfering with any bodily function and which JBC said he never felt.  I am just suggesting that the trajectory from the SN through JFK's throat exit wound at around z190-195 goes to JBC's left side and the only wound on his left side was his left thigh AND the wound characteristics of the thigh wound fit being hit butt-first by a tumbling partially spent bullet.

The fact is that JBC himself later said it is possible that they were hit by the same bullet.

Yes. The second bullet, although he said he would never believe that happened.  He never said that it was possible he was hit in the back by the first bullet - the one he heard, which is what Dan is arguing.

[Charles Collins]

Your theory would also have to explain why he reversed the order of the two events that he distinctly recalled: hearing a rifle shot then feeling the hit.  It would also help if there was evidence to support the theory.
I said that in many cases bullets are often not felt.    In this case, we have JBC describing the moment of impact because he felt it. Not pain. He felt impact.   I suggest that he felt it because it was a pristine 2000 fps 10 gram bullet hitting bone.  But that doesn't matter.   The evidence from JBC is that he felt it and the evidence from Nellie is that he recoiled from it and that it was the second shot.  The thigh wound was an oblique wound caused by a tumbling lower speed bullet striking the thigh butt-first and not interfering with any bodily function and which JBC said he never felt.  I am just suggesting that the trajectory from the SN through JFK's throat exit wound at around z190-195 goes to JBC's left side and the only wound on his left side was his left thigh AND the wound characteristics of the thigh wound fit being hit butt-first by a tumbling partially spent bullet.
Yes. The second bullet, although he said he would never believe that happened.  He never said that it was possible he was hit in the back by the first bullet - the one he heard, which is what Dan is arguing.

Your theory would also have to explain why he reversed the order of the two events that he distinctly recalled: hearing a rifle shot then feeling the hit.  It would also help if there was evidence to support the theory.

Technically, it is just an idea, like yours. A theory requires some testing, peer reviews, etc like the SBT has had over the past 60-plus years. We have been explaining the time distortion phenomenon. You just don’t appear to be listening. If I had not experienced it for myself during the snake strike encounter I might not be so adamant about this. I will try to explain what I experienced again and relate some of it to JBC’s recollections.
My instinctive reaction of jumping backwards (amygdala controlled) happened so fast and so automatic that is was already over with before I even “knew” what was going on. I was hiking alone and was not scanning the trail ahead of me like I should have been. Apparently the snake was camouflaged and blended into the terrain (looked like other tree roots in the area). The amygdala portion of my brain must have seen some movement of the snake (out of the corner of my eye) preparing to strike. But I do not have a memory of actually seeing this movement, only a vague sense of it. It was only after I had instinctively jumped backwards that I realized what was happening. This delay between the instinctive reaction and being cognizant of what was happening is the time it normally takes our brains to form thoughts. Thus it was shown to me that the amygdala can react much faster than the rest of our brains in life threatening situations. Research and read up on this if you want to know more.
Once I actually saw the snake and realized what was happening, everything was magnified and slowed way down. The reason I know that time was distorted in my memory is that gravity does not allow for objects such as striking snakes to just hang in mid air and fall very slowly (what seemed like 2 to 3 seconds) to the ground. I know from experience and schooling that it happens much faster than my memory tells me it happened. My senses (including my hearing) were “supercharged” by the amygdala portion of my brain. The thud that sounded when the snake finally did hit the ground seemed much louder than it possibly could have actually been.
JBC did not have a reference (like I did with gravity and the rate of acceleration of falling objects) to tell him that time in his memory had been distorted. JBC does say that he instinctively turned toward where he sensed the shot came from. I relate JBC’s instinctive turn to my instinctive jump backwards. Since JBC was already turned partially to his right, I think this instinctive reaction could have been simply a very quick head turn (much like Rosemary’s instinctive reaction that we can see on the Z-film). JBC said he realized that he didn’t see JFK out of the corner of his eye as he would have expected, so THEN he decided to turn to his left. It was during his turn that he felt the hit. My idea is that time was distorted for JBC during this (much like the snake strike was in my experience). It does take time for our brains to form thoughts and thus for us realize what is happening (my experience is a good example). If time was distorted for JBC during this thought forming period (similar to my experience with the slow motion snake strike), he could have a distorted memory (that there was more time between when he reacted to the sound and when he felt the impact than there actually was). However, in JBC’s case, he had no way of know about the time distortion (like I did with the snake encounter and gravity reference). I hope that some of this makes sense. It is not an easy thing to try to describe.

[Dan O'meara]

What I should have said, just so you would not be confused, is that it is not just up to Connally to put that much time between the shots.

Connally is not consistent in his estimate of the time between shots. That’s not surprising. He was thinking about other things than counting the seconds.

 I have previously pointed out that JBC said the first two were 2 seconds apart and NOT literally a split second apart.  He also said on yet another occasion that all three took 10 to 12 seconds. He always said that heard the first shot and, after turning around to check on JFK, decided to turn back to the left.  How long does that take? 4 seconds. I don’t know. Maybe.

So we look at other witnesses who are consistent.

But your point, if I understand your theory correctly, is that there was no time between the shot he heard and the shot that hit him in the back ie. they were the same shot.  But JBC never said anything close to that. He always insisted they were separate shots.  You cannot use an argument to change his evidence to mean the opposite of what he meant.

just so you would not be confused

I'm not confused in any way.
I've highlighted your desperate attempts to twist the evidence to fit your "theory" with great clarity.
You were caught out being untruthful about Connally's evidence and are now back-tracking. Nothing confusing about that.
I have presented evidence that someone recalling a massively traumatic event suffers "temporal distortions" - time slowing down etc. - and have pointed out your refusal to acknowledge this evidence. Nothing confusing about that either.
I have pointed out the way you cherry-pick from Connally's statements to uphold your "theory", while ignoring the majority of what he said. Nothing confusing about that.

Charles has pointed out that Connally is fully aware of the difference between a bolt action rifle and an automatic rifle. An automatic rifle can fire multiple rounds per second. Connally is fully aware of this. His first impression is that the gap between what he thought were two shots is a fraction of a second. His first impression was that there were two or three shooters, this also indicates a gap of a fraction of a second. He actually describes it as a "split second". Your desperate attempts to suggest he is somehow describing a gap of more than four seconds is truly laughable.
The arguments I have put forward encompass this impression of a "split second" and the apparently contradictory lengths of time Connally attributes to these events. You simply think he was wrong to describe it as a "split second" as if you know better.

Another area of Connally's testimony that you know better than him is his choice of z234 as the frame he is hit. In his WC testimony Connally puts it within the range of z231 to z234. For the Life article he settles on z234. In the interview you posted he reiterates z234. This is 2 seconds before your own proposed hit. Yet another fail.
That said, it is about half a second after my proposed shot at z223. However, I can account for this discrepancy in a way that doesn't have me saying Connally doesn't know what he's talking about. Unlike you.
I believe I know why Connally chooses z234 as the frame when he was shot. In his various statements he is insistent that he felt the impact of the bullet as he was turning to his left:

"I was turning to look back over my left shoulder into the back seat, but I never got that far in my turn. I got about in the position I am in now facing you, looking a little bit to the left of center, and then I felt like someone had hit me in the back."

There are only two times in the Z-film when Connally turns to his left. One time is in the z160's and is caught in the Croft photo, the other is between z231 and z234 and :



JBC is clear as to when he is hit:

In this extreme close up we see JBC turning left until he is facing " a little bit to the left of center" : 

The reason he chooses the range of z231 to z234 is because this is the only time in the film he is looking " a little bit to the left of center"



The point is this - when he picks z231 - z234 he is picking the moment he BECOMES AWARE that he has been shot - "looking a little bit to the left of center, and then I felt like someone had hit me in the back."
The importance of this is that there is a small time gap between an event actually happening and a persons awareness of that event:

"Human thought takes time to form, and so the “right now” that we’re experiencing inside our skulls is always a little later than what’s going on in the outside world. It takes 500 milliseconds, or half a second, for sensory information from the outside world to be incorporated into conscious experience."

[ https://nymag.com/speed/2016/12/what-is-the-speed-of-thought.html#:~:text=Human%20thought%20takes%20time%20to,be%20incorporated%20into%20conscious%20experience. ]

500 milliseconds is the equivalent of 9 Z-frames, therefore Connally's range of z231 to z234 as to when he became aware of being shot, is the range of z222 - z225 as to when he was actually shot. Exactly encompassing the z222 to z223 I propose for when JBC was shot. The sound of the shots reached him about 100 milliseconds after he was actually shot, another 400 milliseconds later he actually becomes aware of being shot. This "split second" of 400 milliseconds is distorted and stretched in Connally's mind, separating the single event of hearing the shot and feeling the impact into two different shots. This is why he doesn't hear the second shot - because there was no second shot to hear, he heard the shot that hit him.

[Dan O'meara]

A further note on John Connally's various statements and testimonies regarding the shooting, in the light of someone recalling a really traumatic, life-threatening event. Someone like Andrew will take a quote that he finds useful, ignore everything else then argue that Connally wouldn't make it up. I totally agree, I don't believe Connally is making anything up, I believe he is doing his very best to genuinely recall the shooting but his recollection of it is distorted in various ways. Because of this, his testimony cannot be taken at face value but must be 'interpreted' as it is not wholly reliable. It must be measured against evidence such as the Z-film, which should be considered primary evidence.
Steve Barber touched on this issue earlier in the thread.
On another thread Robin Unger posted this very clear gif (excellent work again Robin).
It shows JBC rising and looking back towards the president after ducking down in front of the jump seats.
Nowhere in the dozens of statements he gave in interviews, reports, testimonies etc., does JBC mention this specific and notable action. It is as if he has edited it from his mind. When looking at the clip below it is noticeable how freely he moves considering he has just been shot through the torso.
Like Jackie forgetting she climbed on the trunk, JBC seems to have forgotten this quite significant action, highlighting the dubious nature of putting eye-witness testimony before the Z-film:



In Connally's first interview in hospital he mentions seeing JFK slumped to one side but in all other statements he is adamant he didn't see the president at any time during or immediately after the shooting.