When Was JBC Hit?

[Andrew Mason]

I think it is risky to place a lot of weight on witness accounts unless there is other physical evidence to support them. The photographic record, especially the Z-film, can show us a lot.

I think dozens of witnesses who put the first shot around z190-200 and the lack of a single witness who said that JFK continued to smile and wave after the first "horrible ear-shattering noise" together with 40+ witnesses who volunteered their recall of the 1......2...3 shot pattern tell us more than equivocal grainy zframes even if interpreted by experts.  I agree that physical evidence is important, but SBTers seem to be ignoring all the physical evidence (eg. condition of CE399 not fitting damage to the fifth rib or radius and clothing and being unwilling to acknowledge that an elliptical shaped wound is consistent with a pristine bullet hitting at an angle).

The lack of a sound track and the Stemmons Freeway sign blocking the view of the limo for a short time period requires us to have to improvise and use other clues to try to answer some of the questions.
The Stemmons sign blocks the view and prevents us from knowing whether or not JBC made an instinctive head turn just before he came back into view. However, while JBC was behind the sign, JFK is said to have made an 87-degree head snap to his left between Z203 and Z206 (see the Roberdeaux map notes). I believe this very quick head snap indicates an instinctive reaction by JFK during the time period in question. I believe it could be a reaction to a bullet traversing his lower neck. An additional instinctive reaction could be that Rosemary Willis is said to have snapped her head about 90-100 degrees between Z214 and Z217 (again see Roberdeaux map notes).

Here is Rosemary Willis' head turn at z213-217:


It looks like she has already looked back at the TSBD and is returning to look in the direction of the President's car.  The more interesting head movement is the right-rearward snap from z204-206:

So, with at least two other apparent instinctive reactions happening during the time period in question, it is reasonable to believe that JBC might also have had a similar instinctive reaction while he is hidden from view of the Zapruder camera.
Of course there is a lot more that can be seen on the Zapruder film. There are a lot of head snaps from the limo occupants and other actions that happen around the late Z150s and the Z160s. It is difficult for me to dismiss them without considering that they might be instinctive reactions to a missed first shot. If they are, then it is reasonable to believe that JBC could have not remembered this accurately. Again, putting too much weight on witness accounts is risky because they are often proven to be inaccurate.

Witnesses may be accurate or inaccurate; reliable or unreliable.  But there are simple ways of determining that issue.  If all the witnesses who were watching JFK at the time of the first shot said that he did not continue to smile or wave and almost all of those witnesses said he did things that we see him doing after he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign (which reaction appears to have started earlier) either all the witnesses were in collusion or they actually saw something that caused them to believe they saw JFK react to the first shot as we see him reacting when he emerges from behind the sign.

[Dan O'meara]

I think dozens of witnesses who put the first shot around z190-200 and the lack of a single witness who said that JFK continued to smile and wave after the first "horrible ear-shattering noise" together with 40+ witnesses who volunteered their recall of the 1......2...3 shot pattern tell us more than equivocal grainy zframes even if interpreted by experts.  I agree that physical evidence is important, but SBTers seem to be ignoring all the physical evidence (eg. condition of CE399 not fitting damage to the fifth rib or radius and clothing and being unwilling to acknowledge that an elliptical shaped wound is consistent with a pristine bullet hitting at an angle).
Here is Rosemary Willis' head turn at z213-217:


It looks like she has already looked back at the TSBD and is returning to look in the direction of the President's car.  The more interesting head movement is the right-rearward snap from z204-206:

Witnesses may be accurate or inaccurate; reliable or unreliable.  But there are simple ways of determining that issue.  If all the witnesses who were watching JFK at the time of the first shot said that he did not continue to smile or wave and almost all of those witnesses said he did things that we see him doing after he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign (which reaction appears to have started earlier) either all the witnesses were in collusion or they actually saw something that caused them to believe they saw JFK react to the first shot as we see him reacting when he emerges from behind the sign.

I think dozens of witnesses who put the first shot around z190-200

Mason Untruth #5
There is not a single witness who puts the first shot around z190-200

[Andrew Mason]

I dont ignore anything Connally said.

Mason Untruth #3
You ignore virtually everything Connally says about the shooting.

As I said, I don't ignore anything. I just don't attribute any weight to his estimates of the length of time between the shots or his thinking that the shots were from an automatic rifle. These estimates ranged from a split-second to no, not a split second, more like two seconds to a very, very brief span of time, duly noting that he considered 10-12 seconds to be a very brief span of time.  I don't attribute weight to these estimates because they are inconsistent and do not fit with the spacing observed by many other witnesses.  I do attribute great weight to his recollection of hearing the first shot a perceptible amount of time BEFORE he felt the IMPACT of the bullet in the back.  I accept that because all statements he made about that are consistent and they fit with what is seen in the zfilm and with other witnesses as to when the second shot occurred.

As far as Connally's impression that it was fire from an automatic rifle, all I can say is that he accepts the Warren Commission report that Oswald fired all the shots with the bolt action 2766 MC so his impression was wrong by his own admission.  Besides, 10-12 seconds to fire and then reload aim and fire two more shots does not require an automatic rifle.

You want us to believe that the shot sound arrived at his ears after he was hit in the back, contrary to every statement that he ever made.

I know, from past experience, that when you lose it you start to post really weird things and this is an example. A rifle bullet travels faster than the speed of sound so, of course, Connally is going to hear the shot AFTER he has actually been shot. You are correct when you say that I want you to believe "the shot sound arrived at his ears after he was hit in the back". The bullet is traveling faster than sound so it will reach Connally before the sound does. Everybody knows this.
But you believe that this is "contrary to every statement that he ever made".
So, I would like you to reproduce any statement where Connally says the shot sound reached him BEFORE the bullet did.

Again, knowing you like I do, this will probably be part of the 'wilful ignorance' strategy you often use. I will have already posted the answer to this apparent conundrum but, even though you are aware of it, you will pretend you're not to try a score a point. Either that or you have genuinely lost it.

You aren't serious are you?   In every statement he ever made he emphasized that he heard the first shot and THEN after turning around to his right, failing to see JFK properly and deciding to turn left he felt the impact of the bullet in his back. For example 4 H 135-136:
"Mr. SPECTER. In your view, which bullet caused the injury to your chest, Governor Connally?
Governor CONNALLY. The second one.
SPECTER. And what is your reason for that conclusion, sir?
Governor CONNALLY. Well, in my judgment, it just couldn’t conceivably have
been the first one because I heard the sound of the shot. In the first place, I
don’t know anything about the velocity of this particular bullet, but any rifle
has a velocity that exceeds the speed of sound, and when I heard the sound
of that first shot, that bullet had already reached where I was, or it had reached
that far, and, after I heard that shot, I had the time to turn to my right, and
start to turn to my left before I felt anything.
It is not conceivable to me that I could have been hit by the first bullet,
and then I felt the blow from something which was obviously a bullet,..."

What universe are you in Dan?

[Dan O'meara]

This head snap to the left (that first came up in the HSCA investigation if I'm not mistaken) has been completely debunked in REPLY#60 (pg8) of "The First Shot" thread, where it is shown, for a fact, that at z207 JFK's head is still orientated to his right.

Thank you, I have never been able to discern this head snap. So, I will not argue with you about it. However, the Rosemary Willis head snap around this same time is one of the fastest head snaps on the Z-film according to Roberdeaux’s notes.

Roberdeaux names both JBC’s and JFK’s head snaps, but labels Jackie’s as a head turn. If you note the number of frames that it takes for JFK and JBC to complete their snaps, I think you will see that they are both several times faster than a normal head turn like you are trying to label them as. So I will respectfully have to disagree with you.

As excellent a researcher as Roberdeaux is, and there can be little doubt of that, I've always found it of paramount importance to do my own research rather than rely on the work of others, regardless of how illustrious they are. Below is a close-up video of JFK in the Z-film. We see his head turn to the right as he waves and smiles to the crowds lined on Elm Street. I, personally, do not detect any great urgency in this head turn and the fact that he begins to smile and wave makes a mockery of any notion that he is responding to the sound of a shot.
Is he smiling and waving at the bullet as it passes by?
This is the very well documented moment when Mary Woodward and her colleagues call out to the President and the First Lady to look their way. This would explain why JFK begins to smile and wave. This is why Jackie turns her head from left to right. I too must respectfully disagree with any notion that JFK's head has snapped to the right as a result of hearing a shot. In fact, I find the idea ludicrous.

[Dan O'meara]

As I said, I don't ignore anything. I just don't attribute any weight to his estimates of the length of time between the shots or his thinking that the shots were from an automatic rifle. These estimates ranged from a split-second to no, not a split second, more like two seconds to a very, very brief span of time, duly noting that he considered 10-12 seconds to be a very brief span of time.  I don't attribute weight to these estimates because they are inconsistent and do not fit with the spacing observed by many other witnesses.  I do attribute great weight to his recollection of hearing the first shot a perceptible amount of time BEFORE he felt the IMPACT of the bullet in the back.  I accept that because all statements he made about that are consistent and they fit with what is seen in the zfilm and with other witnesses as to when the second shot occurred.

As far as Connally's impression that it was fire from an automatic rifle, all I can say is that he accepts the Warren Commission report that Oswald fired all the shots with the bolt action 2766 MC so his impression was wrong by his own admission.  Besides, 10-12 seconds to fire and then reload aim and fire two more shots does not require an automatic rifle.
You aren't serious are you?   In every statement he ever made he emphasized that he heard the first shot and THEN after turning around to his right, failing to see JFK properly and deciding to turn left he felt the impact of the bullet in his back. For example 4 H 135-136:
"Mr. SPECTER. In your view, which bullet caused the injury to your chest, Governor Connally?
Governor CONNALLY. The second one.
SPECTER. And what is your reason for that conclusion, sir?
Governor CONNALLY. Well, in my judgment, it just couldn’t conceivably have
been the first one because I heard the sound of the shot. In the first place, I
don’t know anything about the velocity of this particular bullet, but any rifle
has a velocity that exceeds the speed of sound, and when I heard the sound
of that first shot, that bullet had already reached where I was, or it had reached
that far, and, after I heard that shot, I had the time to turn to my right, and
start to turn to my left before I felt anything.
It is not conceivable to me that I could have been hit by the first bullet,
and then I felt the blow from something which was obviously a bullet,..."

What universe are you in Dan?

As I said, I don't ignore anything.

Mason Untruth #6
Do you ignore that on two separate occasions Connally examined the Z-frames and chose z234 as the frame he was hit?
If you don't just ignore it, what is your explanation for this.

What universe are you in Dan?

The universe that understands how the English language works.

[Andrew Mason]

As I said, I don't ignore anything.

Mason Untruth #5
Do you ignore that on two separate occasions Connally examined the Z-frames and chose z234 as the frame he was hit?
If you don't just ignore it, what is your explanation for this.

I don’t ignore it at all. It is just that a second shot at that point is completely inconsistent with:

1. Nellie’s statement to Dr. Shires that he was turned to the right when hit.
2. Nellie’s evidence that after the first shot and before the second she heard JBC yell “no, no, no” before the second shot. JBC appears to utter the words “no, no, no” in the mid 240s.
3. Nellie said she looked back at JFK after the first and before the second shots and saw him with no expression and his hands near his neck. She said after the second shot occurred she never looked back. She does not look back at JFK until after z250 and turns to look at JBC at z269-270. So z250-269 is before the second shot, according to that.
4. Altgens said his z255 #6 photo was after the first and before any other shots.
5. Hickey said he was turned facing forward before the second shot and remained facing forward to see the third shot. He is still facing rearward in Altgens 6.
6. JBC insisted that he turned to his right trying to see JFK before the second shot. There is nowhere prior to z240 that he makes any attempt to see JFK.
7.  The first shot was after z186. We both agree on that. But there are over 40 witnesses who recalled the shot pattern as 1……2…3. That pattern cannot possibly fit a second shot before the midpoint between 1 and 3 with the headshot being  the third shot. Z234 is far too early.
8… I could go on, but you get the idea.

What universe are you in Dan?

The universe that understands how the English language works.

So can you tell us why JBC saying he heard the first shot and then felt the bullet impact in his back was actually saying the opposite?  No interpretation. Just read what he said.

[Dan O'meara]

I don’t ignore it at all. It is just that a second shot at that point is completely inconsistent with:

1. Nellie’s statement to Dr. Shires that he was turned to the right when hit.
2. Nellie’s evidence that after the first shot and before the second she heard JBC yell “no, no, no” before the second shot. JBC appears to utter the words “no, no, no” in the mid 240s.
3. Nellie said she looked back at JFK after the first and before the second shots and saw him with no expression and his hands near his neck. She said after the second shot occurred she never looked back. She does not look back at JFK until after z250 and turns to look at JBC at z269-270. So z250-269 is before the second shot, according to that.

Nellie puts the shot at z229.
Explain.

4. Altgens said his z255 #6 photo was after the first and before any other shots.

Both men are shot at this point. How is Altgens 6 an argument against Connally choosing z234 as the frame he felt he was shot?

5. Hickey said he was turned facing forward before the second shot and remained facing forward to see the third shot. He is still facing rearward in Altgens 6.

Like point 4., this is not evidence against Connally's choice of z234

6. JBC insisted that he turned to his right trying to see JFK before the second shot. There is nowhere prior to z240 that he makes any attempt to see JFK.

He is also adamant he was facing a little left of centre when he was shot. More evidence you ignore.

7.  The first shot was after z186. We both agree on that. But there are over 40 witnesses who recalled the shot pattern as 1……2…3. That pattern cannot possibly fit a second shot before the midpoint between 1 and 3 with the headshot being  the third shot. Z234 is far too early.

This can be interpreted as evidence for a shot after the head shot

8… I could go on, but you get the idea.

No you can't.
That's everything you've got and it's already looking pretty shaky.
There is not a single valid argument against Connally's choice of z234 as the moment he felt he was shot.

So can you tell us why JBC saying he heard the first shot and then felt the bullet impact in his back was actually saying the opposite?  No interpretation. Just read what he said.

I literally don't understand this question.
You were the one implying Connally felt the bullet first and then heard the shot.
I was asking you to provide a quote for such a nonsensical idea!

[Charles Collins]

As excellent a researcher as Roberdeaux is, and there can be little doubt of that, I've always found it of paramount importance to do my own research rather than rely on the work of others, regardless of how illustrious they are. Below is a close-up video of JFK in the Z-film. We see his head turn to the right as he waves and smiles to the crowds lined on Elm Street. I, personally, do not detect any great urgency in this head turn and the fact that he begins to smile and wave makes a mockery of any notion that he is responding to the sound of a shot.
Is he smiling and waving at the bullet as it passes by?
This is the very well documented moment when Mary Woodward and her colleagues call out to the President and the First Lady to look their way. This would explain why JFK begins to smile and wave. This is why Jackie turns her head from left to right. I too must respectfully disagree with any notion that JFK's head has snapped to the right as a result of hearing a shot. In fact, I find the idea ludicrous.

Calling an idea ludicrous isn’t being respectful of it Dan. But thanks for the video link. At least on my iPad and Chrome browser, if I go full-screen with the video, it is possible to pause it and then “grab” the control time bar at the bottom and make the video stop, or go forward or backward at any speed that you want to drag the control at. The first part, which shows the segment in which the limo occupants appear to be reacting to a missed first shot is clear enough to see all four of the VIP passengers. It appears to me that the first part of JBC’s reactions are similar to JFK’s reactions (until the wave by JFK) but lag behind JFK’s reactions by a little bit. They both initially appear to instinctively glance toward their spouses (a normal and instinctive male protective reaction) and one that JBC apparently didn’t remember accurately. Then both of them snap their heads to the right very quickly. JFK appears to have heard the loud shot but didn’t immediately recognize it as a shot, saw nothing that presented itself as a threat, and recovered his composure very quickly and began to wave back at the crowd. On the other hand, JBC appears to be continuing to try to turn as far to his right as he can in that seat. This would be in accordance with his testimony. Both Nellie Connally and Jackie turn to their right also. I really don’t believe that those reactions, from all four of them at roughly the same time, would be warranted by someone in the crowd calling out. After all, they were just leaving a huge crowd where a lot of people were doing just that.
There is a lot of other physical evidence that suggests an early missed shot. Off the top of my head I can name a few:
1.  Rosemary Willis snaps her head back towards the TSBD and begins slowing down in order to stop. The spacing of the dots showing her path on the Roberdeaux map graphically illustrates the slow down. It can also be seen in the Z-film.
2.  The Hughes film has a skip of a few frames at approximately this same time. It is believed it could only be due to Hughes’ reaction to the sound of the shot by lifting his finger pressure on the camera button for an instant.
3.  The Dorman film has a huge jiggle upwards before being abruptly stopped at approximately this same time.
4.  The Tina Towner film stops just before this same time, this agrees with her statement that the first shot sounded about the same time, or slightly after, she stopped filming.
5. It appears to me that the Zapruder film has a jiggle about the same time that JFK snaps his head to the right.

I have been trying to explore different possibilities with an open mind. But again, I cannot simply dismiss all the above physical evidence that suggests an early missed shot. There are also plenty of witness accounts that also suggest this that I haven’t listed.