When Was JBC Hit?

[Charles Collins]

As excellent a researcher as Roberdeaux is, and there can be little doubt of that, I've always found it of paramount importance to do my own research rather than rely on the work of others, regardless of how illustrious they are. Below is a close-up video of JFK in the Z-film. We see his head turn to the right as he waves and smiles to the crowds lined on Elm Street. I, personally, do not detect any great urgency in this head turn and the fact that he begins to smile and wave makes a mockery of any notion that he is responding to the sound of a shot.
Is he smiling and waving at the bullet as it passes by?
This is the very well documented moment when Mary Woodward and her colleagues call out to the President and the First Lady to look their way. This would explain why JFK begins to smile and wave. This is why Jackie turns her head from left to right. I too must respectfully disagree with any notion that JFK's head has snapped to the right as a result of hearing a shot. In fact, I find the idea ludicrous.

Calling an idea ludicrous isn’t being respectful of it Dan. But thanks for the video link. At least on my iPad and Chrome browser, if I go full-screen with the video, it is possible to pause it and then “grab” the control time bar at the bottom and make the video stop, or go forward or backward at any speed that you want to drag the control at. The first part, which shows the segment in which the limo occupants appear to be reacting to a missed first shot is clear enough to see all four of the VIP passengers. It appears to me that the first part of JBC’s reactions are similar to JFK’s reactions (until the wave by JFK) but lag behind JFK’s reactions by a little bit. They both initially appear to instinctively glance toward their spouses (a normal and instinctive male protective reaction) and one that JBC apparently didn’t remember accurately. Then both of them snap their heads to the right very quickly. JFK appears to have heard the loud shot but didn’t immediately recognize it as a shot, saw nothing that presented itself as a threat, and recovered his composure very quickly and began to wave back at the crowd. On the other hand, JBC appears to be continuing to try to turn as far to his right as he can in that seat. This would be in accordance with his testimony. Both Nellie Connally and Jackie turn to their right also. I really don’t believe that those reactions, from all four of them at roughly the same time, would be warranted by someone in the crowd calling out. After all, they were just leaving a huge crowd where a lot of people were doing just that.
There is a lot of other physical evidence that suggests an early missed shot. Off the top of my head I can name a few:
1.  Rosemary Willis snaps her head back towards the TSBD and begins slowing down in order to stop. The spacing of the dots showing her path on the Roberdeaux map graphically illustrates the slow down. It can also be seen in the Z-film.
2.  The Hughes film has a skip of a few frames at approximately this same time. It is believed it could only be due to Hughes’ reaction to the sound of the shot by lifting his finger pressure on the camera button for an instant.
3.  The Dorman film has a huge jiggle upwards before being abruptly stopped at approximately this same time.
4.  The Tina Towner film stops just before this same time, this agrees with her statement that the first shot sounded about the same time, or slightly after, she stopped filming.
5. It appears to me that the Zapruder film has a jiggle about the same time that JFK snaps his head to the right.

I have been trying to explore different possibilities with an open mind. But again, I cannot simply dismiss all the above physical evidence that suggests an early missed shot. There are also plenty of witness accounts that also suggest this that I haven’t listed.

[Andrew Mason]

Nellie puts the shot at z229.
Explain.

Her estimate was based on a review of still frames after watching the film.  Her view is inconsistent with her testimony.  We can see her looking back at JFK as he is grasping for his upper chest/throat well after z250.  She was adamant that she did not look back after the second shot. She was never asked when she thought JBC turned right after the first shot or when she thought JBC uttered “no, no , no” which she said was before the second shot. We can see JBC saying this in the z240s.

How is Altgens 6 an argument against Connally choosing z234 as the frame he felt he was shot?

According to Altgens his no. 6 photo at z255 was taken after the first and before any other shots. So with JBC estimating that he was hit on the second shot at z234, there is a conflict with Altgens (as well as several dozen others as to the 1…...2...3 shot pattern).

You were the one implying Connally felt the bullet first and then heard the shot.
I was asking you to provide a quote for such a nonsensical idea!

No. You were arguing that he was hit in the back on the first shot. If that was the case and if his recollection of hearing the shot and feeling the bullet impact was not made up, you are really saying he got the order reversed as he must have heard the shot after the impact.

[Dan O'meara]

Calling an idea ludicrous isn’t being respectful of it Dan. But thanks for the video link. At least on my iPad and Chrome browser, if I go full-screen with the video, it is possible to pause it and then “grab” the control time bar at the bottom and make the video stop, or go forward or backward at any speed that you want to drag the control at. The first part, which shows the segment in which the limo occupants appear to be reacting to a missed first shot is clear enough to see all four of the VIP passengers. It appears to me that the first part of JBC’s reactions are similar to JFK’s reactions (until the wave by JFK) but lag behind JFK’s reactions by a little bit. They both initially appear to instinctively glance toward their spouses (a normal and instinctive male protective reaction) and one that JBC apparently didn’t remember accurately. Then both of them snap their heads to the right very quickly. JFK appears to have heard the loud shot but didn’t immediately recognize it as a shot, saw nothing that presented itself as a threat, and recovered his composure very quickly and began to wave back at the crowd. On the other hand, JBC appears to be continuing to try to turn as far to his right as he can in that seat. This would be in accordance with his testimony. Both Nellie Connally and Jackie turn to their right also. I really don’t believe that those reactions, from all four of them at roughly the same time, would be warranted by someone in the crowd calling out. After all, they were just leaving a huge crowd where a lot of people were doing just that.
There is a lot of other physical evidence that suggests an early missed shot. Off the top of my head I can name a few:
1.  Rosemary Willis snaps her head back towards the TSBD and begins slowing down in order to stop. The spacing of the dots showing her path on the Roberdeaux map graphically illustrates the slow down. It can also be seen in the Z-film.
2.  The Hughes film has a skip of a few frames at approximately this same time. It is believed it could only be due to Hughes’ reaction to the sound of the shot by lifting his finger pressure on the camera button for an instant.
3.  The Dorman film has a huge jiggle upwards before being abruptly stopped at approximately this same time.
4.  The Tina Towner film stops just before this same time, this agrees with her statement that the first shot sounded about the same time, or slightly after, she stopped filming.
5. It appears to me that the Zapruder film has a jiggle about the same time that JFK snaps his head to the right.

I have been trying to explore different possibilities with an open mind. But again, I cannot simply dismiss all the above physical evidence that suggests an early missed shot. There are also plenty of witness accounts that also suggest this that I haven’t listed.

Calling an idea ludicrous isn’t being respectful of it Dan.

With all due respect Charles, I was being very kind by referring to your suggestion that JFK responded to the sound of a shot by waving and smiling at Mary Woodward and her colleagues as "ludicrous". It's the kind of nonsense I would expect from a "Greer shot JFK" kind of mentality.

I have been trying to explore different possibilities with an open mind.

Really?
Then spend half an hour or so familiarising yourself with Mary Woodward's account of events.

Hughes has a skip
Dorman has a jiggle
Towner stops
Zapruder has a jiggle.
How embarrassing.

[Charles Collins]

Calling an idea ludicrous isn’t being respectful of it Dan.

With all due respect Charles, I was being very kind by referring to your suggestion that JFK responded to the sound of a shot by waving and smiling at Mary Woodward and her colleagues as "ludicrous". It's the kind of nonsense I would expect from a "Greer shot JFK" kind of mentality.

I have been trying to explore different possibilities with an open mind.

Really?
Then spend half an hour or so familiarising yourself with Mary Woodward's account of events.

Hughes has a skip
Dorman has a jiggle
Towner stops
Zapruder has a jiggle.
How embarrassing.

With all due respect Charles, I was being very kind by referring to your suggestion that JFK responded to the sound of a shot by waving and smiling at Mary Woodward and her colleagues as "ludicrous". It's the kind of nonsense I would expect from a "Greer shot JFK" kind of mentality.

All you are showing is disrespect. Why would you say you were respectfully disagreeing if you weren’t? What makes you think that JFK recognized the loud noise as a rifle shot? JBC is only one of a handful of witness who said they recognized it as a shot. The vast majority of the witnesses who were there (you were not) said they thought it was something other than a gunshot (backfire, firecracker, etc).


Really?
Then spend half an hour or so familiarising yourself with Mary Woodward's account of events.

I have read her account. It has been a while back, so frankly I do not remember it that well. Do you have a point to make?


Hughes has a skip
Dorman has a jiggle
Towner stops
Zapruder has a jiggle.
How embarrassing.


Please tell us how and why you think Hughes’ skip happened?

 These all took place at the same approximate time as the other items (head snaps, stop running, etc) listed in the earlier post above. Do you really think this is simply coincidence?

[Andrew Mason]

Calling an idea ludicrous isn’t being respectful of it Dan. But thanks for the video link. At least on my iPad and Chrome browser, if I go full-screen with the video, it is possible to pause it and then “grab” the control time bar at the bottom and make the video stop, or go forward or backward at any speed that you want to drag the control at. The first part, which shows the segment in which the limo occupants appear to be reacting to a missed first shot is clear enough to see all four of the VIP passengers. It appears to me that the first part of JBC’s reactions are similar to JFK’s reactions (until the wave by JFK) but lag behind JFK’s reactions by a little bit. They both initially appear to instinctively glance toward their spouses (a normal and instinctive male protective reaction) and one that JBC apparently didn’t remember accurately. Then both of them snap their heads to the right very quickly. JFK appears to have heard the loud shot but didn’t immediately recognize it as a shot, saw nothing that presented itself as a threat, and recovered his composure very quickly and began to wave back at the crowd. On the other hand, JBC appears to be continuing to try to turn as far to his right as he can in that seat. This would be in accordance with his testimony. Both Nellie Connally and Jackie turn to their right also. I really don’t believe that those reactions, from all four of them at roughly the same time, would be warranted by someone in the crowd calling out. After all, they were just leaving a huge crowd where a lot of people were doing just that.
There is a lot of other physical evidence that suggests an early missed shot. Off the top of my head I can name a few:
1.  Rosemary Willis snaps her head back towards the TSBD and begins slowing down in order to stop. The spacing of the dots showing her path on the Roberdeaux map graphically illustrates the slow down. It can also be seen in the Z-film.
2.  The Hughes film has a skip of a few frames at approximately this same time. It is believed it could only be due to Hughes’ reaction to the sound of the shot by lifting his finger pressure on the camera button for an instant.
3.  The Dorman film has a huge jiggle upwards before being abruptly stopped at approximately this same time.
4.  The Tina Towner film stops just before this same time, this agrees with her statement that the first shot sounded about the same time, or slightly after, she stopped filming.
5. It appears to me that the Zapruder film has a jiggle about the same time that JFK snaps his head to the right.

I have been trying to explore different possibilities with an open mind. But again, I cannot simply dismiss all the above physical evidence that suggests an early missed shot. There are also plenty of witness accounts that also suggest this that I haven’t listed.

First of all, this is not physical evidence of a missed first shot.  Physical evidence of a missed first shot would be a divot in the pavement, or in whatever it struck showing signs of being made by a bullet - such as little pieces of lead/antimony in it.  There is no physical evidence of a missed first shot.

There are equivocal movements of people in the photographic record.  By itself, no one would ever say that record shows reactions to a shot.  On the other hand, there is a mountain of witness evidence that says there was no missed first shot - that JFK reacted to being struck by the first shot.  You say witnesses are not reliable yet you cling to a few vague witness statements to interpret the photographic images to support a first shot miss.

This is the one thing Dan has right - the first shot struck JFK.  I disagree with Dan that this occurred at z222 and that JBC was struck in the back by it.  Mary Woodward and others described all the things we see in the zfilm prior to the car disappearing behind the Stemmons sign as happening BEFORE the first shot.

[Zeon Mason]

Is that true that Altgens had heard only one shot /loud noise, when he took his no.6 photo at Z-255?

If so , and IF the 1st loud shot  was theoretically fired at Z195-200 ,(as proposed by Andrew Mason) , then the 2nd shot which majority of forum members here seem to agree is causing the abrupt rotation turn of JCs right shoulder at Z224 must have been a suppressed shot which Altgens did not hear.

Perhaps this might explain also the of reaction by the SS agents not occurring (seemingly) until after Z255?

Andrew keeps trying to dismiss this Z224 reaction of JC as something not caused by a bullet impacting JC , so as to preserve his version of the WC theory that only 3 loud shots were fired by a solitary MC rifleman.

The majority of the LNs and some CTs (myself included) , however , agree that the reaction of JC at Z224 is more probably due to impact of a bullet hitting JC.

Therefore I propose that an adjustment must be made to Andrews theoretical shot sequence to include  the Z224 reaction of JC caused by a suppressed shot fired by 2nd gunman, which would resolve  the Altgens issue.

[Andrew Mason]

Is that true that Altgens had heard only one shot /loud noise, when he took his no.6 photo at Z-255?

If so , and IF the 1st loud shot  was theoretically fired at Z195-200 ,(as proposed by Andrew Mason) , then the 2nd shot which majority of forum members here seem to agree is causing the abrupt rotation turn of JCs right shoulder at Z224 must have been a suppressed shot which Altgens did not hear.

Perhaps this might explain also the of reaction by the SS agents not occurring (seemingly) until after Z255?

Andrew keeps trying to dismiss this Z224 reaction of JC as something not caused by a bullet impacting JC , so as to preserve his version of the WC theory that only 3 loud shots were fired by a solitary MC rifleman.

The majority of the LNs and some CTs (myself included) , however , agree that the reaction of JC at Z224 is more probably due to impact of a bullet hitting JC.

Therefore I propose that an adjustment must be made to Andrews theoretical shot sequence to include  the Z224 reaction of JC caused by a suppressed shot fired by 2nd gunman, which would resolve  the Altgens issue.

You can’t do that. The shot sequence 1……2…3 is based on evidence from dozens of independent sources.  You try very hard to convince us that you can see a bullet striking JBC at z224, but it does not fit large bodies of independent and consistent evidence. 

You have to look at it all the evidence.  There is just too much evidence that the first shot was after z186 and struck JFK and that there was a longer pause until the next shot and then after a shorter pause, the third shot.  That excludes a loud shot at z224.  And there is no evidence whatsoever of a silent shot.

[Charles Collins]

First of all, this is not physical evidence of a missed first shot.  Physical evidence of a missed first shot would be a divot in the pavement, or in whatever it struck showing signs of being made by a bullet - such as little pieces of lead/antimony in it.  There is no physical evidence of a missed first shot.

There are equivocal movements of people in the photographic record.  By itself, no one would ever say that record shows reactions to a shot.  On the other hand, there is a mountain of witness evidence that says there was no missed first shot - that JFK reacted to being struck by the first shot.  You say witnesses are not reliable yet you cling to a few vague witness statements to interpret the photographic images to support a first shot miss.

This is the one thing Dan has right - the first shot struck JFK.  I disagree with Dan that this occurred at z222 and that JBC was struck in the back by it.  Mary Woodward and others described all the things we see in the zfilm prior to the car disappearing behind the Stemmons sign as happening BEFORE the first shot.

First of all, this is not physical evidence of a missed first shot.


It is physical evidence. A witness account is not. That is the point.

 All evidence requires interpretation. And there are a lot of experts who disagree with your interpretation (opinion).