When Was JBC Hit?

[Andrew Mason]

First of all, this is not physical evidence of a missed first shot.


It is physical evidence. A witness account is not. That is the point.

 All evidence requires interpretation. And there are a lot of experts who disagree with your interpretation (opinion).

To be physical evidence of a shot you need something that tells you JBC’s movement could only have resulted from a bullet to the back. All the movement you see in JBC is consistent with voluntary motion reacting to hearing the sound of the first shot.

Besides, you want to use JBC’s statements of what he thought was his position at the time of the first shot to support your view. So you are relying on witness evidence that you say is not reliable.


As far as experts disagreeing with a second shot striking JBC at z271-272  (I don’t consider FBIs Robert Frazier to be a qualified medical expert)  or the bullet through JFK striking JBC in the left thigh directly, I would certainly appreciate it if you could point them out.  As far as I am aware no medical or ballistics expert has even considered the JFK throat to JBC thigh trajectory.

[Charles Collins]

To be physical evidence of a shot you need something that tells you JBC’s movement could only have resulted from a bullet to the back. All the movement you see in JBC is consistent with voluntary motion reacting to hearing the sound of the first shot.

Besides, you want to use JBC’s statements of what he thought was his position at the time of the first shot to support your view. So you are relying on witness evidence that you say is not reliable.


As far as experts disagreeing with a second shot striking JBC at z271-272  (I don’t consider FBIs Robert Frazier to be a qualified medical expert)  or the bullet through JFK striking JBC in the left thigh directly, I would certainly appreciate it if you could point them out.  As far as I am aware no medical or ballistics expert has even considered the JFK throat to JBC thigh trajectory.

Andrew, we were discussing the evidence of a missed first shot. You have inexplicably changed the subject and misapplying the quote. 

[Zeon Mason]

Please post some diagram that shows how it’s possible for a shot fired from TSBD 6th floor SE window thru JFKs back that exited  his throat to line up with JCs thigh wound without that bullet having gone thru some part of JCs  body before impacting his inner  left thigh.

The trajectory line must go thru the wrist bone of JCs right hand before entering the thigh

 The only other diagram by Andrew that I’ve seen is an extremely twisted contorted JC body that does not appear to me to line up JCs  hand with trajectory line  from JFKs throat.

So maybe Andrew can post another diagram
with some kind of correction to align JCs right hand with trajectory exit from JFKs throat without any part of JCs left shoulder/back or torso in the way of the bullet path.

[Andrew Mason]

Please post some diagram that shows how it’s possible for a shot fired from TSBD 6th floor SE window thru JFKs back that exited  his throat to line up with JCs thigh wound without that bullet having gone thru some part of JCs  body before impacting his inner  left thigh.

Here:


The key is realizing that the first shot occurred just as or just after JFK became clear of the oak tree branches as seen from the SN.. He was opposite a point between the first lamp post and the Thornton Freeway sign when he cleared those branches. 



According to the Itek map of Dealey Plaza that was used in its 1967 report, JFK was opposite the lamp post just before Betzner took his photo at z186.



Between z183 and z203 JBC was turned to the right to about a 2 o'clock position:



At z193 the angle of a shot from the SN through JFK to the car direction was 15 degrees,

[Dan O'meara]

Her estimate was based on a review of still frames after watching the film.  Her view is inconsistent with her testimony.  We can see her looking back at JFK as he is grasping for his upper chest/throat well after z250.  She was adamant that she did not look back after the second shot. She was never asked when she thought JBC turned right after the first shot or when she thought JBC uttered “no, no , no” which she said was before the second shot. We can see JBC saying this in the z240s.

So, now Nellie's testimony is "inconsistent".
   It didn't take you much to throw your star witness under the bus! You really are a piece of work.
Now you have deemed Nellie to be unreliable you have undermined almost half of your baloney evidence for why you completely ignore Connally selecting z234 as the moment he felt he was shot.

According to Altgens his no. 6 photo at z255 was taken after the first and before any other shots. So with JBC estimating that he was hit on the second shot at z234, there is a conflict with Altgens (as well as several dozen others as to the 1…...2...3 shot pattern).

There is absolutely no conflict with Altgens 6 when it is realised that Connally's estimate of when he was shot is an estimation of WHEN HE BECAME AWARE HE'D BEEN SHOT.
This point has been made over and over and over again so it's time to pin you down on it so you can't squirm out of it.
Here are a few questions I would like you to answer:

1] Do you agree with the following science?:

"Human thought takes time to form, and so the “right now” that we’re experiencing inside our skulls is always a little later than what’s going on in the outside world. It takes 500 milliseconds, or half a second, for sensory information from the outside world to be incorporated into conscious experience."

[ https://nymag.com/speed/2016/12/what-is-the-speed-of-thought.html#:~:text=Human%20thought%20takes%20time%20to,be%20incorporated%20into%20conscious%20experience. ]

2] Do you agree that in Z-frames z231 to z234 Connally is looking a little bit to the left of centre?

3] From Connally's statement below, would you agree he picked z234 as the frame he was shot because this was when he was looking "a little bit to the left of center"?

"I was turning to look back over my left shoulder into the back seat, but I never got that far in my turn. I got about in the position I am in now facing you, looking a little bit to the left of center, and then I felt like someone had hit me in the back."

[Dan O'meara]

JFK wasn't clear of the foliage until z207.
To state otherwise is a deliberate falsehood.
The idea that the assassin would shoot through the oak tree is utterly ridiculous. Any shot before z207 would have been through the branches of the oak tree.
It is slightly insane that it has to be pointed out that the assassin knew in advance where the "kill zone" was to be.
He would have been fully aware of the oak tree.
He would never have dreamed of shooting while the limo was anywhere near the oak tree.
He would have waited until JFK was out in the open.
To suggest otherwise is demented.

[Andrew Mason]

JFK wasn't clear of the foliage until z207.  To state otherwise is a deliberate falsehood.

I showed you the position of JFK when clear of the foliage.  I showed you the map and Itek’s positions of JFK at the time of Betzner, z188 and Willis #5 (z202).  Are you suggesting that Itek was deliberately spreading falsehoods?

The idea that the assassin would shoot through the oak tree is utterly ridiculous. Any shot before z207 would have been through the branches of the oak tree.

We don’t know what Oswald was thinking.  He would have been able to track the car while it passed under the tree branches. So he could easily have shot just as JFK was clear of the tree.  It is conceivable that he could have fired before. 

I am not sure what you base z207 as the time JFK was clear of the tree branches as seen from the SN.  Are you using the flawed FBI recreation?

In any event there is certainly a change in JFK’s hand and head between z188 and z198 and we have evidence that the first shot was after z186 and before z202.

[Dan O'meara]

I showed you the position of JFK when clear of the foliage.  I showed you the map and Itek’s positions of JFK at the time of Betzner, z188 and Willis #5 (z202).  Are you suggesting that Itek was deliberately spreading falsehoods?

Itek isn't deliberately spreading falsehoods, you are.
You do little else as it's the only way you can peddle your demented theory.
Your methodology for determining when JFK was clear of the foliage is a joke, which keeps it perfectly aligned with everything else about your "theory".

We don’t know what Oswald was thinking.  He would have been able to track the car while it passed under the tree branches. So he could easily have shot just as JFK was clear of the tree.  It is conceivable that he could have fired before. 

I am not sure what you base z207 as the time JFK was clear of the tree branches as seen from the SN.  Are you using the flawed FBI recreation?

In any event there is certainly a change in JFK’s hand and head between z188 and z198 and we have evidence that the first shot was after z186 and before z202.

We don’t know what Oswald was thinking.

It doesn't matter what Oswald was thinking as he never took the shots.
But we do have very strong evidence that the shooter was visualising the kill zone moments before the motorcade entered Dealy Plaza:
This is from Ronald Fischer's WC testimony:

"And I looked up and I watched the man for, oh, I'd say, 10 or 15 seconds. It was until the first car came around the corner of Houston and Main. And, then, when that car did come around the corner, I took my attention off of the man in the window and started watching the parade. The man held my attention for 10 or 15 seconds, because he appeared uncomfortable for one, and, secondly, he wasn't watching-uh---he didn't look like he was watching for the parade. He looked like he was looking down toward the Trinity River and the triple underpass down at the end-toward the end of Ell Street. And--uh--all the time I watched him, he never moved his head, he never-he never moved anything. Just was there transfixed."

While everyone was looking for the motorcade entering Dealey Plaza, the shooter was "transfixed" on the kill zone. This is what he would have been looking at:



Above is the view from the SN window the assassin was staring at, "transfixed".
As far as the assassin is concerned there is only one feature of interest - the open stretch of road beyond the oak tree.
It makes perfect sense that the assassin has already made up his mind regarding his plan of action.
The idea that he starts taking random potshots as the limo passes the TSBD won't fly. The idea that he is rushing so much he needs to fire through the oak tree won't fly.
Look at the picture above, if you were the assassin, when would you pull the trigger?


In any event there is certainly a change in JFK’s hand and head between z188 and z198 and we have evidence that the first shot was after z186 and before z202

Of course there's a change, he's waving his hand and turning his head from looking to his right to looking forward. His interaction with Mary Woodward and her colleagues has passed and he is resuming his normal position. Why on earth would he stay frozen in the same position? Your desperation to try and grab on to anything you think might prop up your demented theory is astonishing.
THERE IS NOTHING in the Z-film to indicate JFK has been shot before he passes behind the Stemmons sign.
Not a single thing other than people projecting their own delusions onto what a head turn might mean. JFK's first noticeable, visual reaction begins after he has emerged from behind the Stemmons sign.

And the single piece of evidence that exists for a shot before z202 comes from Phil Willis' discredited money-making scam.