When Was JBC Hit?

[Andrew Mason]

Certainly Rosemary Willis coming to a stop around z195 is not evidence for a shot at z195-200. Because what is relevant is not when she came to a stop but when she started to slow down. Humans, girls, indeed objects in general cannot stop on a dime, unless they run into a brick wall. They have to decelerate, which takes some time. We have to take into account basic physics.

It doesn't take that long to stop. Most people can go from a run to a stop in 2 or 3 steps. She may have been slowing because the President's car was pulling away and she could not longer keep up to it.  Besides, she said that when she heard the first shot she stopped and looked back at the TSBD and saw pigeons flying away from the roof. She stops at z199.  She was not turned looking at the TSBD until z204. She then turns sharply back toward the TSBD at z204-207. Pigeons didn't wait 5 seconds to take flight after hearing the shot.

[Jerry Organ]

"She was not turned looking at the TSBD until z204."



Rosemary can easily see the Depository as she was slowing. Even if her eyes were looking straight out from her head, she could see with both eyes. More likely, she had her eyes turned a little in the direction of the shot, which allowed her to focus a line-of-sight on the pigeons.

"Pigeons didn't wait 5 seconds to take flight after hearing the shot."

Who said that? Must be more Masomactics.

[Charles Collins]

"She was not turned looking at the TSBD until z204."



Rosemary can easily see the Depository as she was slowing. Even if her eyes were looking straight out from her head, she could see with both eyes. More likely, she had her eyes turned a little in the direction of the shot, which allowed her to focus a line-of-sight on the pigeons.

"Pigeons didn't wait 5 seconds to take flight after hearing the shot."

Who said that? Must be more Masomactics.

Another excellent graphic Jerry. I think that it might be enlightening if the positioning of the limo during the time period is also indicated on the graphic.

[Jerry Organ]

Standard lane widths in North America are 12 feet. I think you will find that the 40' width figure includes the sidewalk and curbs.

40' width is the roadway for traffic.

JFK appears to be in the middle of the middle lane:


He does not appear to be left of the centre of the lane.

The right side of the car is about in the center of the lane. Cutler and Roberdeau have JFK a little to the left-of-center. But you know more than anyone else, so never-mind.

The car was 76.8 inches wide (6'4.8")  and tires are about a foot to the right of the lane marker, so the right edge of the car is almost 7.5 feet right of the left lane marker.

I think you meant 78.6" wide. But if you think Ford got it wrong all these years, write them.



The tire distance to the lane stripe isn't the side of the car distance. The tire is not on the same plane as the side of the car. With Z170, for example, I don't think the widest part of the left side of the left-front tire is in view and we can only see the tread, which is inward from the car side more.

So show us your plotting!

I suggest you use a map that's somewhat accurate.





But you know more than what aerial photos can tell us, so never-mind.

And show us why JFK was not visible between the lamp post and Thornton sign!  You can't use the FBI May 1964 recreation because it uses he wrong car and with the tree looking very much fuller than it was in late fall 1963.

A white Continental seen through foliage is not the same either. There's no discernible change in the foliage. 

[Charles Collins]

A 12’ lane width is only the minimum standard for interstate highways in the USA. In practice they vary quite a bit. People who live in Texas and California are accustomed to significantly wider lanes. So much wider that they often comment on how narrow the lanes are when they are visiting elsewhere. A rough idea of Elm Street’s width can be measured with Google Maps. It shows the lanes’ widths to be about 13 feet each.

[Joe Elliott]

. . .

"Pigeons didn't wait 5 seconds to take flight after hearing the shot."

. . .

Who said that? Must be more Masomactics.

Pigeons not waiting 5 seconds to take flight after hearing a shot is a basic insight of biology that Charles Darwin devoted an entire chapter to in his book 'Origin of the Species". Or maybe this is just something Andrew came up with. I don't remember.

Actually, I think Pigeons are unpredictable. They might hear a shot and stay still and look around before a second or even a third shot causes one of them to take off and the rest to follow suit. Or maybe they would take off from near the center of the roof after the first shot but not become visible to observers on Elm Street until they were 20 feet or more above the roof, or flew horizontally into view to people below. There could be a delay of several seconds after they took off before people could see them. Or maybe not. It is hard to say.

Besides, I am reluctant to rely on the memories of witnesses, let along the decisions of pigeons.

[Joe Elliott]

It doesn't take that long to stop. Most people can go from a run to a stop in 2 or 3 steps. She may have been slowing because the President's car was pulling away and she could not longer keep up to it.  Besides, she said that when she heard the first shot she stopped and looked back at the TSBD and saw pigeons flying away from the roof. She stops at z199.  She was not turned looking at the TSBD until z204. She then turns sharply back toward the TSBD at z204-207. Pigeons didn't wait 5 seconds to take flight after hearing the shot.

Most people can go from a run to a stop in 2 or 3 steps? I don't know about most people but I can't without the assistance of a side of a building. Like Wily Coyote style.

I remember that John Madden said the very best NFL cornerbacks could start to react, not stop but start to react, in one or two steps, a more typical NFL cornerback in two steps and a good college cornerback who fails to make the cut in the NFL might need three or even 4 steps.

Certainly 1.5 seconds does not sound like an unreasonable amount of time for a child to go from a run to a stop, like from z163 to z190.

[Andrew Mason]

40' width is the roadway for traffic.

Your source would be helpful. 

The right side of the car is about in the center of the lane. Cutler and Roberdeau have JFK a little to the left-of-center. But you know more than anyone else, so never-mind.

I think you meant 78.6" wide. But if you think Ford got it wrong all these years, write them.

I was using the actual measurements found in the 6 HSCA 50:


which shows the width to be 76.8 inches:

The tire distance to the lane stripe isn't the side of the car distance. The tire is not on the same plane as the side of the car. With Z170, for example, I don't think the widest part of the left side of the left-front tire is in view and we can only see the tread, which is inward from the car side more.

Ok. So tell us how far the right edge of the car is left or right of the centre of the centre lane and how far JFK is to the left of that.

I suggest you use a map that's somewhat accurate.

I would be happy to, if you can find one.

But you know more than what aerial photos can tell us, so never-mind.

Your aerial view does not show Dealey Plaza as it was in 1963. For one thing, in 1963 the lamp posts were on the curb edge of the sidewalk.  They are moved back to the grass side in your photo.