When Was JBC Hit?

[Zeon Mason]

I just looked at Z160 frame and , I think I see THREE SS agents ( one of whom is Clint Hill) looking towards their LEFT!!

So that kind of changes my previously opinion that ALL SS agents in the follow up  car kept looking “forward” and or to the right side of the JFK limo thru the sequence  from Z133 to Z207.

Also I noticed at Z234 -z238 that the agent behind Clint Hill seems not to have reacted yet either to the Z 224 shot.

But Clint is looks like he is looking at JFK at Z234, so he has to have seen the Z224 reaction, yet he does not HEAR that shot?

I can’t really see any of the other SS agents from Z234 thru Z313 so other than Altgens Z255 photo , it’s uncertain if any of them are recorded in other film or photo looking back to TSBD prior to Z 255.

[Dan O'meara]

I just looked at Z160 frame and , I think I see THREE SS agents ( one of whom is Clint Hill) looking towards their LEFT!!

So that kind of changes my previously opinion that ALL SS agents in the follow up  car kept looking “forward” and or to the right side of the JFK limo thru the sequence  from Z133 to Z207.

Also I noticed at Z234 -z238 that the agent behind Clint Hill seems not to have reacted yet either to the Z 224 shot.

But Clint is looks like he is looking at JFK at Z234, so he has to have seen the Z224 reaction, yet he does not HEAR that shot?

I can’t really see any of the other SS agents from Z234 thru Z313 so other than Altgens Z255 photo , it’s uncertain if any of them are recorded in other film or photo looking back to TSBD prior to Z 255.

What does any of this have to do with when JBC was hit?
And Clint Hill isn't looking to his left in z160.
And I don't understand why you would think all the SS agents were looking forward or to the right.

Clint is looks like he is looking at JFK at Z234, so he has to have seen the Z224 reaction,

There was no reaction at z224.
z234 is about half a second later. What reaction are you expecting in half a second?

[Zeon Mason]

Dan, I’m saying that Clint Hill is certainly seeing JFKs hands going up at Z224-227 so why does not Clint HEAR this shot?

Now if there’s some shot that Clint did hear at Z160 which is the LNs favorite 1st shot, then that’s 3.5 seconds prior to Clint seeing JFK reacting at Z224.

And the SS agent right behind Hill must have missed hearing a 1st shot at Z160 because he is  not looking back at TSBD at Z234.

from Z160-234 is 74 frames/18.5 = approx 4 secs and supposedly  2 loud shots have been fired and it’s not until Z255 that Hill finally BEGINS to jump of the car almost 5.5 seconds from the time he has heard the 1st shot that some LNs claim is probably at Z160.

It  seems unlikely to me that a trained  SS agent, especially the one tasked primarily to keep his eye on JFK at all times would not react until 5.5 seconds have elapsed after he heard 2 loud shots and saw JFK hit.

So either Hill , Betzer, Willis , Altgens are deaf and completely missed hearing a Z160shot ( it had to be about that early  otherwise it gets too close to Z224 to be the MC rifle).

OR.. the 1st loud shot that all of them heard must be at Z224 , in which case THEN the reaction by Hill is in about 1.5 -2 secs after hearing the Z 224 shot.

With the Willis Z205 photo is  there any wiggle room of him hearing the shot a mere 1 sec AFTER he clicked the camera rather that exactly AS the shot was fired?

The Willis girl slowing  and stopping at Z195 maybe is due to something else than a loud rifle shot?

Other than that , the 1st shot at Z224 theory as this thread started out with , seems a pretty good explanation for Altgens , Hill, Willis and Betzner hearing only 1 shot prior to Z255 .

However, IDK about  if a 3rd shot was fired after Z313 and why that bullet was not found anywhere. Did they search on the OTHER side of the Triple Underpass? because if the shot  was an unaimed shot 2.0 sec later thanZ313 , it might traveled high and possibly landed 1000 yds away from Dealey plaza.

[Andrew Mason]

It was in response to Dan saying that 3 shots, 3 hits is a demented theory.

This is an out-and-out lie and I will be looking for you to retract it.

I maintain 3 shots, 3 hits, one shooter.  First shot hits JFK in the neck, Second hits JBC in the back, Third shot hits JFK in the head.  That’s it. You think my view is some kind of demented theory-your words not mine. If you are now saying that 3 shots, 3 hits, one shooter is not an unreasonable scenario, I would expect you to withdraw your characterization of it as being demented.

[Andrew Mason]

Clint is looks like he is looking at JFK at Z234, so he has to have seen the Z224 reaction,

There was no reaction at z224.
z234 is about half a second later. What reaction are you expecting in half a second?

You can think that JFK is not reacting at z224 and that his hands just happened to be in that position, but many reasonable people disagree and have concluded that it his reaction to the first shot started well before z224. I would suggest that the HSCA photographic panel’s conclusion that JFK began reaction to a severe external stimulus before he passed behind the sign is more likely to be correct than your view that he did not react until after z225.

[Jack Nessan]

I never claimed it as proof of anything. It was in response to Dan saying that 3 shots, 3 hits is a demented theory. I just pointed out that JBC, Nellie and, apparently,Clint Hill, agreed with such a “demented theory”. When you accused me of twisting Clint Hill’s statement, I simply pointed out that I was not relying on his statement but on what he accepts as the correct sequence of events: 3 shots, 3 hits, one shooter.

You, on the other hand, think that anyone who thinks there were 3 shots, let alone 3 hits, is twisting the evidence..

This whole post is just beyond the pale, once again.

Seriously, “Three shots and three hits”, where is the evidence other than in fantasy land? In fact where is there any piece of information backing this disjointed theory.

You did lump Clint Hill in this nonsense. What you left out in this huge BS story is you admit he stated there was a different number of shots in his earlier WC testimony. You remember “not based on WC Testimony”. Nellie referenced JBC was hit by the first shot and was confirmed by Jackie referencing JBC’s utterances after being struck by the bullet. JBC only ever stated he actually heard two shots.

The biggest obstacle to this nonsense is the fact there was only evidence of two bullets and two shells having been fired. It is easy to tell the people who know about firearms and those who do not by their belief in SBT. Based on the orientation of JBC and JFK, only a complete idiot would make the claim it was not possible.

[b]You, on the other hand, think that anyone who thinks there were 3 shots, let alone 3 hits is twisting the evidence.

What evidence? Can you prove three shots? Where is the evidence of three shots and three hits? Don't be shy, post it all. Torture all the witness statements that you want but when you are done how about provide the physical evidence that proves it. You have been at this a long time you must have a treasure trove of evidence to be posted. Can't wait to see it.

[Andrew Mason]

This whole post is just beyond the pale, once again.

Seriously, “Three shots and three hits”, where is the evidence other than in fantasy land? In fact where is there any piece of information backing this disjointed theory.

You did lump Clint Hill in this nonsense. What you left out in this huge BS story is you admit he stated there was a different number of shots in his earlier WC testimony. You remember “not based on WC Testimony”.

Clint Hill has always maintained that he heard only two shots and I never said otherwise.  I just said that he agrees there were three shots, three hits, one shooter.  In the Youtube video, if you were to watch it, confirms that.  He admits in the video that he heard only two shots but accepts there was a shot after the first shot and before the head shot, both of which he heard, while he was running between cars.  He accepts this because other agents told him there was such a shot.

Nellie referenced JBC was hit by the first shot and was confirmed by Jackie referencing JBC’s utterances after being struck by the bullet.

Now you are in fantasy land. Nellie never said JBC was hit by in the back by the first shot. She said he uttered "oh, no, no" after the first shot and before he was hit in the back by the second.

JBC only ever stated he actually heard two shots.

Yes. But he certainly said he was sure he was not hit in the back by the first because of the perceptible time difference between hearing the first shot, turning to see JFK and then feeling the forceful impact of the bullet that hit him in the back.

The biggest obstacle to this nonsense is the fact there was only evidence of two bullets and two shells having been fired. It is easy to tell the people who know about firearms and those who do not by their belief in SBT. Based on the orientation of JBC and JFK, only a complete idiot would make the claim it was not possible.

Whether it is possible depends on when it occurred. The issue is not whether it would be possible at some point but whether there is evidence to support it.

[b]You, on the other hand, think that anyone who thinks there were 3 shots, let alone 3 hits is twisting the evidence.

[Andrew Mason]

despite dozens of witnesses saying that the headshot was the last.

I won't call this a bare-faced lie as I've underestimated how confused you seem to be.
For factual accuracy you are stating that there are at least 24 witnesses who say the headshot was the last shot.
Dozens?
There's no need to go out of your way to dig out all the witnesses who make up this comprehensive list.
Instead, just name ten witnesses who state the headshot was the last shot.

For starters, here are 1.33 dozens who described JFK being hit on the last shot heard: JBC, Nellie, Greer, Dave Powers, Curtis Bishop, Ken O’Donnell, George Hickey, Paul Landis, Clint Hill, James Altgens, Mary Woodward, J. W. Foster (WC testimony), Glen Bennett, William MacIntyre, Gayle Newman, William Newman.   

You think 3 shots, 3 hits, which was the FBI’s working scenario for several months, is demented?

No.
I think your demented theory is demented.
Shooting through the oak tree
Having the bullet ricochet at least 40 degrees off Connally's ribs
Passing through Connally when he was turned side on to the SN window
The bullet smashing his wrist-bone without moving his hand
And this is only the tip of the iceberg.
The staggering amount of evidence and testimony you simply ignore to try to make it work, the twisted interpretations you apply to the evidence, the constant evasiveness and deception...

All of what you say is demented is the only three shot, three hit, one shooter scenario that is possible on the evidence.  So you are actually saying that such a theory is demented. You are saying that Clint Hill and Gerald Blaine are promoting a demented theory.