When Was JBC Hit?

[Jack Nessan]

Mason; I have never said JBC was wounded before Hill left the running board. I said:

Mason;"He accepts the "theory" that the first shot struck JFK and he reacted immediately to it (his own observation), that he jumped off the running board and ran to the President's car and during this run another shot was fired that struck Governor Connally (which he did not hear but believes because fellow agents told him), that as he was about to reach the President's car a third shot was fired and struck JFK in the head. "

The statement "that the first shot struck JFK and he reacted immediately to it" refers to JFK reacting immediately to it.  It was not only Clint Hill who observed this.  Every witness who was watching JFK at the time, with the possible exception of Mary Woodward, noticed this.  Woodward just said he turned forward at the moment of the first "horrible ear-shattering noise". [Note: at that distance 200 feet from the SN, the sound arrives about 100 ms after the bullet. It could be that the turn was in response to the bullet.]
Not if JBC and Nellie were correct that he was hit on the second shot.  According to Altgens there was only one shot to that point. And not according to SA Hickey who is still facing backward at z255. He said he turned forward and was looking at JFK at the time of the second shot.  Greer also said he turned in response to, and almost simultaneously with, the second shot. He turns rearward for the first time between about z278 and z283.
No. I can't prove it to your satisfaction. You think 132 witnesses (as compiled for the HSCA who reported hearing exactly three shots) and this distribution of witness recollections as to the number of shots means there were only two shots:

I have never said JBC was wounded before Hill left the running board. I said:
 
"He accepts the "theory" that the first shot struck JFK and he reacted immediately to it (his own observation), that he jumped off the running board and ran to the President's car and during this run another shot was fired that struck Governor Connally (which he did not hear but believes because fellow agents told him), that as he was about to reach the President's car a third shot was fired and struck JFK in the head. "
 
The statement "that the first shot struck JFK and he reacted immediately to it" refers to JFK reacting immediately to it.  It was not only Clint Hill who observed this.  Every witness who was watching JFK at the time, with the possible exception of Mary Woodward, noticed this.  Woodward just said he turned forward at the moment of the first "horrible ear-shattering noise". [Note: at that distance 200 feet from the SN, the sound arrives about 100 ms after the bullet. It could be that the turn was in response to the bullet.]
 

Apparently you are forgetful. Here is exactly what you posted. 

“He accepts the "theory" that the first shot struck JFK and he reacted immediately to it (his own observation), that he jumped off the running board and ran to the President's car and during this run another shot was fired that struck Governor Connally”

Your post is directly tied to Hill running and nothing else. Unfortunately for this goofy theory , Clint Hill does not leave the running board and start running to JFK’s limousine until Z310. That would place this mystery shot at Z311. Followed by the head shot at Z313. We know there was a shot at Z313. Anything you would like to add? So much for the Z250 shot.

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Every witness who was watching JFK at the time, with the possible exception of Mary Woodward, noticed this. 

The statement "that the first shot struck JFK and he reacted immediately to it" refers to JFK reacting immediately to it. Every witness who was watching JFK at the time, with the possible exception of Mary Woodward, noticed this. Woodward just said he turned forward at the moment of the first "horrible ear-shattering noise".

No, let me help you. Woodward stated “he faced forward again and suddenly there was a horrible, ear-shattering noise coming from behind us” 

Good for you Andrew, it has taken 10+ years but you finally clued in and accepted the fact that all the eyewitnesses state JFK reacted to the first shot. Seriously, it has taken you a long time to grasp things. I am glad you finally did. This realization on your part ends the goofy early Z190 shot?

Mary Woodward's correct quote explains that JFK had turned forward before the first shot. He did not turn forward until Z207. Picking her as a witness to promote a shot at Z190 seems strange. Her statement does not confirm your theory it dismisses it.

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Not if JBC and Nellie were correct that he was hit on the second shot.  According to Altgens there was only one shot to that point. And not according to SA Hickey who is still facing backward at z255. He said he turned forward and was looking at JFK at the time of the second shot.  Greer also said he turned in response to, and almost simultaneously with, the second shot. He turns rearward for the first time between about z278 and z283.
 
You can’t quote Nellie and JBC without quoting Jackie’s and Nellie’s confirming statements of JBC being struck by the first shot. Altgens is a two shot witness. SA Hickey stated “the second and third shot so close together they sound like one shot and the impact of the bullet made his hair fly forward.” Greer turned twice not once. The last time at Z305. His second shot has him accelerating the same as SA Kellerman. According to SA Greer he did not even wait for Kellerman to instruct him to accelerate.

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No. I can't prove it to your satisfaction. You think 132 witnesses (as compiled for the HSCA who reported hearing exactly three shots) and this distribution of witness recollections as to the number of shots means there were only two shots:

No, it is about proof of any kind. Earwitnesses are not proof of anything except there was an assassination. You can’t prove it all to anyone's satisfaction. This cherry picked earwitness compilation with no parameters governing the compilation is nothing but the sum total of what you think is evidence. All someone had to say was three shots and that was good enough for you. You are no longer quoting Elizabeth Loftus?

What happened to your so called “follow the evidence” garbage constantly being claimed all these years.  The bullet and shell information alone proves you wrong. Your Clint Hill posts are a perfect example of it how the evidence completely proves your theory is nonsense and the only thing you are following is your whim and fancy.

[Andrew Mason]

Your post is directly tied to Hill running and nothing else. Unfortunately for this goofy theory , Clint Hill does not leave the running board and start running to JFK’s limousine until Z310.

We can see him running between cars in the Nix film. It takes him quite a while because the cars are moving and he has to outrun them. We cannot see him leave the running board in the zfilm. It is quite consistent with the known evidence that he left the QM within a second after Altgens #6, which was taken at z254-255.

No, let me help you. Woodward stated “he faced forward again and suddenly there was a horrible, ear-shattering noise coming from behind us” 

I said “with possible exception of Woodward. It depends on the time difference between the forward turn and the muzzle blast reaching her ears.  The forward turn just before she heard the sound of the shot could be from the impact of the bullet if it was 100ms before the sound reached her. That was the point of my Note: at that distance 200 feet from the SN, the sound arrives about 100 ms after the bullet. It could be that the turn was in response to the bullet.

Good for you Andrew, it has taken 10+ years but you finally clued in and accepted the fact that all the eyewitnesses state JFK reacted to the first shot. Seriously, it has taken you a long time to grasp things. I am glad you finally did. This realization on your part ends the goofy early Z190 shot?

You must be confusing me with someone else. I have always maintained that JFK reacted to the first shot. His reaction is gradual. It starts after the impact between z186 (Betzner) and z202 (Phil Willis) with the gradual realization that something is wrong. Jackie turns her head directly toward him as they go behind the sign -watch her hat turn. The change of facial expression and movement of hands is complete when he is seen again in z223 and z224. The reaction then becomes panic-like at z226, perhaps when he tries to take a breath and he experiences difficulty breathing.

Mary Woodward's correct quote explains that JFK had turned forward before the first shot. He did not turn forward until Z207. Picking her as a witness to promote a shot at Z190 seems strange. Her statement does not confirm your theory it dismisses it.

He turns within a few frames after z193 which is hard to see because of the blur but is apparent by z198.

[Jack Nessan]

We can see him running between cars in the Nix film. It takes him quite a while because the cars are moving and he has to outrun them. We cannot see him leave the running board in the zfilm. It is quite consistent with the known evidence that he left the QM within a second after Altgens #6, which was taken at z254-255.I said “with possible exception of Woodward. It depends on the time difference between the forward turn and the muzzle blast reaching her ears.  The forward turn just before she heard the sound of the shot could be from the impact of the bullet if it was 100ms before the sound reached her. That was the point of my Note: at that distance 200 feet from the SN, the sound arrives about 100 ms after the bullet. It could be that the turn was in response to the bullet.
You must be confusing me with someone else. I have always maintained that JFK reacted to the first shot. His reaction is gradual. It starts after the impact between z186 (Betzner) and z202 (Phil Willis) with the gradual realization that something is wrong. Jackie turns her head directly toward him as they go behind the sign -watch her hat turn. The change of facial expression and movement of hands is complete when he is seen again in z223 and z224. The reaction then becomes panic-like at z226, perhaps when he tries to take a breath and he experiences difficulty breathing.He turns within a few frames after z193 which is hard to see because of the blur but is apparent by z198.

We can see him running between cars in the Nix film. It takes him quite a while because the cars are moving and he has to outrun them. We cannot see him leave the running board in the zfilm. It is quite consistent with the known evidence that he left the QM within a second after Altgens #6, which was taken at z254-255.

"Quite awhile," are you joking, No, Hill only takes 4 to 5 steps and he then grabs the back of the Limo. He does not exit the SS car until around Z310. Sorry but it is the harsh reality of it. Maybe before you came up with this odd theory with Hill you should have done a little more homework.


I said “with possible exception of Woodward. It depends on the time difference between the forward turn and the muzzle blast reaching her ears.  The forward turn just before she heard the sound of the shot could be from the impact of the bullet if it was 100ms before the sound reached her. That was the point of my Note: at that distance 200 feet from the SN, the sound arrives about 100 ms after the bullet. It could be that the turn was in response to the bullet.

Woodward rained on your parade. She is quoted properly and give the pseudo math analysis a rest.


You must be confusing me with someone else. I have always maintained that JFK reacted to the first shot. His reaction is gradual. It starts after the impact between z186 (Betzner) and z202 (Phil Willis) with the gradual realization that something is wrong. Jackie turns her head directly toward him as they go behind the sign -watch her hat turn. The change of facial expression and movement of hands is complete when he is seen again in z223 and z224. The reaction then becomes panic-like at z226, perhaps when he tries to take a breath and he experiences difficulty breathing.
 
You have never maintained anything or you would not have generated so many different scenarios. You drift with every breeze.


He turns within a few frames after z193 which is hard to see because of the blur but is apparent by z198.

No, not blurry at all. At Z206 he is still looking left and waving to the crowd. At Z207 he looks straight ahead and goes behind the sign.

[Zeon Mason]

Wow which one of the 5 theories to choose  from 🤔

1. WC standard : 3 shots from the solitary gunman ( Oswald )using the MC rifle from the SE window 6th floor TSBD  , 1st shot  Z160-170 was a missed shot fired (before Betzner 186 photo) which shot was not heard by Betzner or Willis  2nd shot fired approx at Z224 , the SBT shot, a bullet that went thru 2 bodies , thru flesh and between ribs and thru wrist bone , and was CE 399 , a bullet so marginally deformed that it seems to defy physics.

2. WC (Jack variation)There were only 2 shots fired  from a solitary gunman (Oswald?) using the MC rifle,  1st one at Z224 , and 2nd one at Z313 and that vast majority of witness  that heard 3 shots  must be mistaken.

3. WC (Andrew variation) : 3 shots fired from the solitary gunman (Oswald )using the MC rifle , 1st shot at Z195-200 (thru at least some minimal tree foliage) that hit only JFK. 2nd shot somewhere around Z270 that hit only JC. 3rd shot at Z313 that hit JFK.

4. WC/CT (Dan version) 3 shots fired by solitary gunman ( NOT Oswald however) , from TSBD, using the MC rifle? 1st shot at Z224 hits JFK and JC as per the SBT. 2nd shot is Z313. 3rd shot is about 2 secs later which was just a final unaimed shot ( which hit the curb near Tague?)
 
5. CT (Zeon version) : 4 shots total were fired. 3 loud shots from one gunman in TSBD using a semi auto rifle , 1 suppressed shot by a 2nd gunman in Daltex bldg.
1st shot at Z160-170 was the suppressed shot by Daltex gunman that missed just past JFKs right shoulder. Only a few persons heard this shot . Willis girl slowed and then stopped by Z195 in response to hearing that shot. Amos Euins may have heard that shot also, explaining why he heard 4 shots.
2nd  (1st loud shot heard ) was at Z224 that hit both JFK and JC . That bullet was a pointed bullet found on the stretcher, which had to be replaced with CE399.
3rd (2nd loud shot heard ) shot was between Z224 and Z313 at about Z270 that went slightly high and hit the curb near Tague. That bullet left trace metallic element in the curb that were different than  an MC bullet
4th (3rd loud shot heard) was 313
 
Note: the 3 loud shots were fired in 4.8 seconds with the last 2 just slightly closer together , which matches Harold Normans boom click click 3 shot spacing which he completes in about 4 secs ( in video recordings)  The “click click” could be sound of the shells bouncing on the floor.

[Andrew Mason]

We can see him running between cars in the Nix film. It takes him quite a while because the cars are moving and he has to outrun them. We cannot see him leave the running board in the zfilm. It is quite consistent with the known evidence that he left the QM within a second after Altgens #6, which was taken at z254-255.

"Quite awhile," are you joking, No, Hill only takes 4 to 5 steps and he then grabs the back of the Limo. He does not exit the SS car until around Z310. Sorry but it is the harsh reality of it. Maybe before you came up with this odd theory with Hill you should have done a little more homework.

"quite a while" is 3-4 seconds. He has to step off the running board and get his feet running to keep pace with the QM and then sprint the 15 feet from the running board position to the back of the limo.  But the cars are moving at about 12 mph or 18 feet per second.  From z280 or so appear to slow down to about 12 feet per second from z280 to z320.

So to reach the limo in one second, which is about what you are suggesting, Hill would have to run at an average speed of 27-33 feet per second. That is the speed of an Olympic sprinter running the 100 yard dash in 10 seconds. And sprinters don't do it wearing suits and dress shoes and don't do it leaping off moving cars.

In the Nix film we cannot see Clint Hill leave the running board. He is first seen beside the front part of the QM while JFK is still upright, so it is before the head shot:


At this point he has already jumped off and heading toward the limo so he is well into his run. It is simply not possible that he leapt off at z310.

He turns within a few frames after z193 which is hard to see because of the blur but is apparent by z198.

No, not blurry at all. At Z206 he is still looking left and waving to the crowd. At Z207 he looks straight ahead and goes behind the sign.

The blur is between z193 and z198. JFK in z198 has already turned quite a bit forward. You can see his right ear and can no longer see the left side of his face:


There is not much difference between z198 and z207:

You can also see Jackie's head turn from looking at the crowd on the right at z187 to looking directly at JFK before z207:

[Zeon Mason]

Where in that Z195-z207 sequence of frames does JFK get hit in Andrews scenario?

Should there not be some forward motion of the body if hit in the back by a 2000ft/sec 6.5 mm bullet?

I’m not certain though depending the path of the bullet  thru the back and exiting the throat without striking any bone, perhaps there was less transfer of momentum than if the bullet had hit some bone and gone they the cavity.

[Andrew Mason]

Where in that Z195-z207 sequence of frames does JFK get hit in Andrews scenario?

Should there not be some forward motion of the body if hit in the back by a 2000ft/sec 6.5 mm bullet?

Whether the body moves depends on many factors. When a bullet passes completely through tissue like it did with the neck bullet, momentum transferred to the body is less the higher the bullet speed. That is because the resistance force is the same regardless of bullet speed so the impulse to the body (impulse =Force x time = momentum transfer) is proportional to the transit time.

Recoil speed also depends on the mass of the target, including the mass to which the target is connected. In JFK’s case that was the entire upper body because of the very rigid back brace that he was wearing. That brace also resists forward motion of the torso, limiting how far the bullet momentum will move the torso

So if the 10 gram bullet lost 800 fps in passing through JFK (from 2000 to 1200 fps) - a loss of 244 m/s - the momentum imparted to the body would be 2.4 kg m/s. That would cause a 1 kg mass to move at a speed of 2.4 m/s. But JFK’s upper body would weigh about 60% of his 75kg body weight or 45 kg. So the movement would be about 2.4/45 or about 5 cm per second. So in a single frame (1/18.3 of a second) the movement would be a bit less than 3 mm. That might be seen over several frames.  But if he was hit around z193, as I suggest the evidence shows, the subsequent frames are too blurry to see that and then he passes behind the sign.  So it is not surprising that we don’t see any clear movement of JFK from the neck bullet.

[Dan O'meara]

Where in that Z195-z207 sequence of frames does JFK get hit in Andrews scenario?

Should there not be some forward motion of the body if hit in the back by a 2000ft/sec 6.5 mm bullet?

I’m not certain though depending the path of the bullet  thru the back and exiting the throat without striking any bone, perhaps there was less transfer of momentum than if the bullet had hit some bone and gone they the cavity.

In Andrew's scenario JFK is shot at z193, through the oak tree, and he carries on smiling and waving.

This is not a joke or an exaggeration.

It must also be noted that, in Andrew's demented theory, at the same time JBC is hit in the leg by a bullet that hits the bone in his leg....and he doesn't notice it.
According to Andrew's demented theory JFK doesn't realise he's been shot and neither does JBC.