When Was JBC Hit?

[Dan O'meara]

  Just look at Connally. He turns his entire Upper Body to the (R), (not just a head turn), in order to see what is going on with JFK in the backseat.  Connally's jump seat is close to the center of the Limo. Being close to the center of the vehicle gives Connally the Open Space to make his exaggerated upper body turn.   

You do realise that this is a strong argument in favour of JFK and JBC being in alignment for a single shot and against the Knotts Lab cartoon.

[Royell Storing]

 Not at all. JFK is leaning back into that corner that is created where the Backrest meets the passenger side of the limo. Connally's jumpseat is close to the Middle of the JFK Limo. Connally therefore has the SPACE/ROOM to corkscrew his upper torso as he tries to SEE JFK and figure out what is going on with him in the backseat. This "alignment" is clear at Love Field as JFK sits down inside the Limo and Kellerman unfolds the jumpseat for Connaly to sit in. Solely relying on the perspective challenged Zapruder Film is a mistake. Going back to images from the beginning/Love Field needs to be included when considering the SBT.

[Dan O'meara]

Not at all. JFK is leaning back into that corner that is created where the Backrest meets the passenger side of the limo. Connally's jumpseat is close to the Middle of the JFK Limo. Connally therefore has the SPACE/ROOM to corkscrew his upper torso as he tries to SEE JFK and figure out what is going on with him in the backseat. This "alignment" is clear at Love Field as JFK sits down inside the Limo and Kellerman unfolds the jumpseat for Connaly to sit in. Solely relying on the perspective challenged Zapruder Film is a mistake. Going back to images from the beginning/Love Field needs to be included when considering the SBT.

You're mistaken Royell.
You are constantly trumpeting the results of the Knotts Lab cartoon. The point they are making is that JBC needs to be closer to the centre of the limo to make their cartoon work. The excellent point you make about JBC having the room to turn round in his seat places him more centrally in the limo, thus putting him in alignment with the bullet through JFK's neck and totally undermining the Knotts Lab cartoon you hold so dear.
You are correct. JBC is sat more centrally than the Knotts Lab cartoon depicts.
Well done on yet another "proof" to add to your growing collection. 

[Andrew Mason]

(although we really can't tell when JFK began reacting)

Yes, we can

You are guessing that he is not already reacting behind the sign. You are guessing that his right hand suddenly moved from a high wave at z193 to a knarled clutch at z223 for no reason relating to being shot. The fact is that we cannot see him when he is behind the sign.  So if you think he is not reacting behind the sign it is not based on something that can be seen in the film.

He said he was hit in the back a perceptible time after that

He said he was hit a "split second" after hearing the shot. He said the two events were so close together he thought there was multiple people firing at the same time or that an automatic rifle (which can fire two rounds in a split second) was being used.
His memory of the event has the typical temporal distortions experienced by those who go through a traumatic, life-threatening event. That is to say, in his memory of the event time slowed down in a very radical way. The shot he heard and the shot he felt were the same shot.

He also said it was enough time for him to recognize it as a rifle shot and turn to look back over his right shoulder in a serious attempt to see JFK and then decide to turn back before he was hit in the back. He estimated it to be two seconds. His words, not mine.

The right side of his jacket didn't burst forward because JBC was concerned about JFK.

I agree. But I also see no evidence that the jacket did burst forward. Neither did the WC or HSCA. Where do you see JBC looking down at his chest? He said he immediately saw blood and knew that he had been shot.

It burst forward as a result of the bullet exiting his chest.

Again, that’s your guess.  It is not my guess. My guess is that it is consistent with jacket movement due to his right arm moving as he prepares to turn around to see JFK.

[Royell Storing]

  The mistake You are making is with the positioning of JFK. JFK is Not anywhere close to being seated near the center of the JFK Limo. Just look at the Open Space between JFK and Jackie. Just look at where Jackie's flowers were laying down on the Limo backseat. An alleged bullet that Exited the throat of JFK would have been just inside the passenger side of the Limo. JFK's (R) armpit is almost directly above the side of the Limo. When Kellerman is standing outside the Limo and leans into it in order to unfold Connally's jump seat, he bends over from the waist and extends his arms into the car in order to unfold the jump seat which is close to the middle of the vehicle. At Love Field after JFK sits down and leans back into his sitting position, he shakes hands with a man standing outside the car. JFK's entire (R) arm extends outside the car while he is facing forward. His (R) armpit is Outside of the car due to how close to the side of the car he is sitting. Just my opinion, but I believe JFK liked this seated corner position due to his back condition/back brace. The Love Field seated positions of JFK and Gov Connally makes it clear. JFK's throat is nowhere close to being in-line with the (R) armpit of Connally.       

[Jerry Organ]

  The mistake You are making is with the positioning of JFK. JFK is Not anywhere close to being seated near the center of the JFK Limo. Just look at the Open Space between JFK and Jackie. Just look at where Jackie's flowers were laying down on the Limo backseat. An alleged bullet that Exited the throat of JFK would have been just inside the passenger side of the Limo. JFK's (R) armpit is almost directly above the side of the Limo. When Kellerman is standing outside the Limo and leans into it in order to unfold Connally's jump seat, he bends over from the waist and extends his arms into the car in order to unfold the jump seat which is close to the middle of the vehicle. At Love Field after JFK sits down and leans back into his sitting position, he shakes hands with a man standing outside the car. JFK's entire (R) arm extends outside the car while he is facing forward. His (R) armpit is Outside of the car due to how close to the side of the car he is sitting. Just my opinion, but I believe JFK liked this seated corner position due to his back condition/back brace. The Love Field seated positions of JFK and Gov Connally makes it clear. JFK's throat is nowhere close to being in-line with the (R) armpit of Connally.       

When JFK shakes hands at Love Field, he is leaning a little bit towards Jackie. He has to be made upright to show how he sat in Dealey Plaza.

[Royell Storing]

  Jerry - The film footage I referenced shows JFK directly facing the guy outside of the Limo that is shaking his hand. The BACK of JFK's head is facing Jackie. He is NOT leaning toward her. The (L) photo you have posted is Not capturing the same moment in time as this Love Field film footage.

[Andrew Mason]

It is difficult to discern the door handles but that seems to me to be the correct spots and there seems to be something there. It is also difficult to discern the rear handholds due to the motorcycle front forks beyond the left one and the chrome trim on the front of the Queen Mary beyond the right handhold. However I think we both agree that is the way it appears in Z193. Although, as Murphy’s law would have it, the Roberdeaux map seems to indicate an angle closer to 28-degrees when the line of sight is laid out on it. The image quality of the Z193 image might be part of the issue.
Anyway, what angle do you calculate the bullet trajectory would be (at Z193) from the sniper’s nest window relative to the long axis of the JFK limo? My quick analysis indicates about 16-degrees.

I get 18.5 degrees at z193 using the Berkley map. 


I place JFK on a line from Zapruder to a point about 3 feet north of the end of the concrete retaining wall as seen in z193. Drawing a line parallel to the lane markers at that point and extending back (green) and drawing a line to the SN perpendicular (light blue), and then drawing a direct line from the SN to JFK (red), the angle between green and red is arcsin(light blue/red) which I measure to be arcsin(86/272)=18.4 degrees. When I do the same thing on Trask's map I get 17.5 degrees:



so I suspect there are differences in the maps. The Berkley map claims to have been surveyed.  I don't know the source of Trask's map. 

If you have another preferred map of Dealey Plaza that includes the TSBD I will work it out on that map.