The LHO Escape -- Panic and Shock

[Richard Smith]

So many rabbit holes.  If logic and facts had any impact on the CTers, they wouldn't reach the conclusions that they come to in the first place.  We all know it is futile.  They have been presented with the evidence countless times.  They discount it as fakery or refuse to accept any fact by implication.  For example, if Klein's sent a rifle to Oswald's PO Box with a specific serial number and that rifle shows up in Oswald's place of employment with his print found on it, that means he received this particular rifle.   Throw in a picture of him holding it, confirmation from his own wife that he possessed a rifle in this same timeframe, the fact that his rifle is missing on 11.22 and can't be accounted for in any other way except as the one found on the 6th floor on the very same day that Oswald made an unusual visit to the Paine home where he stored the rifle and carried a long package to work the next morning and then lied about doing so to police indicating it was his lunch sack.  No reasonable person could dispute the obvious conclusion to be drawn from all this evidence and circumstances.  Reasonable is the key word.

[Martin Weidmann]

So many rabbit holes.  If logic and facts had any impact on the CTers, they wouldn't reach the conclusions that they come to in the first place.  We all know it is futile.  They have been presented with the evidence countless times.  They discount it as fakery or refuse to accept any fact by implication.  For example, if Klein's sent a rifle to Oswald's PO Box with a specific serial number and that rifle shows up in Oswald's place of employment with his print found on it, that means he received this particular rifle.   Throw in a picture of him holding it, confirmation from his own wife that he possessed a rifle in this same timeframe, the fact that his rifle is missing on 11.22 and can't be accounted for in any other way except as the one found on the 6th floor on the fact that his rifle is missing on 11.22 and can't be accounted for in any other way except as the one found on the 6th floor on the very same day that Oswald made an unusual visit to the Paine home where he stored the rifle and carried a long package to work the next morning and then lied about doing so to police indicating it was his lunch sack.  No reasonable person could dispute the obvious conclusion to be drawn from all this evidence and circumstances.  Reasonable is the key word.

if Klein's sent a rifle to Oswald's PO Box with a specific serial number - assumption for which there is no evidence

that rifle shows up in Oswald's place of employment with his print found on it, - assumption that it is the rifle which you can't even prove was sent by Klein's and utter lie that a print was found on the rifle. The FBI found no print.

that means he received this particular rifle. - speculative conclusion based on a questionable premise

Throw in a picture of him holding it, - assumption that the rifle Oswald is holding in the BY photos is the same as the one allegedly sent by Klein's and/or found at the TSBD

confirmation from his own wife that he possessed a rifle in this same timeframe,  - utter lie. Marina Oswald never confirmed anything of the kind

the fact that his rifle is missing on 11.22 - assumption. There is no evidence that was a rifle in Ruth Paine's garage after late September that could have gone missing

and can't be accounted for in any other way except as the one found on the 6th floor - untrue. Marina said she saw the wooden stock of a rifle in a blanket in the last week of september. If you accept that Marina did see a rifle, anything could have happened to that rifle during the two months between the last sighting and the assassination

on the very same day that Oswald made an unusual visit to the Paine home - untrue. There is nothing unusual about the visit. In total, Oswald only visited Irving about six times between early october and 11/21/63. In that time he skipped one weekend and once went on a Thursday instead of Friday. Marina and Ruth Paine both stated that Oswald had come on Thursday to try and save his marriage.

where he stored the rifle - assumption. There is not a shred of evidence that Oswald ever stored a rifle at Ruth Paine's garage.

carried a long package to work the next morning and then lied about doing so to police indicating it was his lunch sack. - assumption. There is no evidence whatsoever that Oswald lied to the police

No reasonable person could dispute the obvious conclusion to be drawn from all this evidence and circumstances.  Reasonable is the key word.

No reasonable person would jump to any conclusion based on assumptions and claims for which no evidence exists.   

[John Mytton]

"by the way, my name is Mytton with a capital "M", not mytton, please be more vigilant in the future! " John Mytton

I am aware of the shall we say protocol of duncans forum , the preferred manner in which duncan would like members to post and act .And duncan mentioned this to me in a very courteous and respectful manner which i really do appreciate . And i will attempt my very best to adhere to that and to all forum rules . To that end i have been attempting to post as i was asked , i see that even tho i thought i had done as i was asked i can see i misunderstood slightly what Duncan asked and i erred , in that regard Duncan has my apology  . However (and it is no way any criticism of Duncan or his forum at all , i respect Duncan and his forum greatly and i have happily visited here for many years )  i do take exception to what i feel is a rather juvenile complaint by you , and a rather hypocritical demand for respect when you go around attacking people on this forum in the manner that you do and have done . I have always believed and asserted that respect is a two way street , and ones respect is earned , it is not an automatic right , especially if that individual seemingly demanding some level of respect does not always  care to afford others the same level of respect they them selves now seemingly demand .

For the record you can spell or misspell my name in any manner that you deem appropriate , you will receive no complaint from me what so ever . I would not lower myself to your level , that is the level to which many LN of my previous acquaintance have lowered them selves .that is in attacking ones grammar or lack there of often while using that as a method of ignoring facts that had been provided . For my self it is of no import what so ever how a person types (or writes ) , whether they have grammatical error or not . And after all not every person will speak or even write in fluent english , so in that sense i personally dont care about grammatical issues .  What is most important to me is what one says when they do write  is honest , reliable and credible , accurate , unbiased and as truthful as is humanly possible . but i will endeavor to always try to ensure to type your name correctly going forward , so as not to insult your delicate sensibilities by failing to use a  capital letter .

So many words Fergus, I didn't ask for your life story, I just want you to show the same respect that I show you and address me properly.

JohnM

[Mitch Todd]

Wikipedia still has a long way to go before it becomes a credible and reliable source,

Whatever flaws you think it has, Wikipedia is still universally regarded as a more reliable source than Martin Weidman.

but even if the April issue appeared on news stands at the beginning of March, it still does not alter the fact that he Hidell order form clearly refers to the February issue.v

You are operating under the delusion that the difference would matter, or that the fulfillment staff would even notice.

The most remarkable part of this discussion is how LNs are trying to put a square peg into a round hole.

This was supposed to be a simple, normal, transaction. A guy orders a mail order rifle from the February issue of some magazine and either receives that rifle or gets notified it's out of stock.

Here we have, as so often in this case, as massive spin story on how a 36" rifle ordered from the February issue of a magazine somehow turns into an alleged delivery of a 40" rifle that wasn't advertised until the April issue of the same magazine.

We have an order code that in the February issue refers to a 36" long rifle and in the April issue refers to a 40" version of the same model rifle. At some point between the February issue and the April issue c20-t250 went from being 36" to 40".  Even if we ignore any post-dating of the issues, that leaves March open as the month in which this change occurred. In short, there's no actual evidence of a discrepancy in the first place. And if the post-dating is taken into account, Oswald got exactly what he actually ordered, if not exactly quite what he might have expected.

Even worse, there isn't even a shred of evidence that any rifle was actually sent to a P.O. box in Dallas and/or was received by anybody.

And now you want to try and change the subject to something else.

[Martin Weidmann]

Whatever flaws you think it has, Wikipedia is still universally regarded as a more reliable source than Martin Weidman.

You are operating under the delusion that the difference would matter, or that the fulfillment staff would even notice.

We have an order code that in the February issue refers to a 36" long rifle and in the April issue refers to a 40" version of the same model rifle. At some point between the February issue and the April issue c20-t250 went from being 36" to 40".  Even if we ignore any post-dating of the issues, that leaves March open as the month in which this change occurred. In short, there's no actual evidence of a discrepancy in the first place. And if the post-dating is taken into account, Oswald got exactly what he actually ordered, if not exactly quite what he might have expected.

And now you want to try and change the subject to something else.

Whatever flaws you think it has, Wikipedia is still universally regarded as a more reliable source than Martin Weidman.

Who said so? Was there research on this topic, or are you simply making it up?

You are operating under the delusion that the difference would matter, or that the fulfillment staff would even notice.

Of course it matters. Only a fool would say that if you order a 36" rifle and they sent you a 40" rifle. you recieved what you've ordered.

We have an order code that in the February issue refers to a 36" long rifle and in the April issue refers to a 40" version of the same model rifle. At some point between the February issue and the April issue c20-t250 went from being 36" to 40".  Even if we ignore any post-dating of the issues, that leaves March open as the month in which this change occurred. In short, there's no actual evidence of a discrepancy in the first place..

Bla bla bla.... The Hidell order was for a 36" rifle, as advertised in the February issue. The order should have been filled with a 36" rifle or cancelled it they had run out of stock.

And if the post-dating is taken into account, Oswald got exactly what he actually ordered, if not exactly quite what he might have expected

Just how idiotic can you be? If Oswald ordered anything at all, he ordered a 36" rifle. If he then receives a 40" than he didn't get exactly what he ordered, !

And now you want to try and change the subject to something else.

Utter BS... you just don't want to go there

[John Mytton]

Whatever flaws you think it has, Wikipedia is still universally regarded as a more reliable source than Martin Weidman.

You are operating under the delusion that the difference would matter, or that the fulfillment staff would even notice.

We have an order code that in the February issue refers to a 36" long rifle and in the April issue refers to a 40" version of the same model rifle. At some point between the February issue and the April issue c20-t250 went from being 36" to 40".  Even if we ignore any post-dating of the issues, that leaves March open as the month in which this change occurred. In short, there's no actual evidence of a discrepancy in the first place. And if the post-dating is taken into account, Oswald got exactly what he actually ordered, if not exactly quite what he might have expected.

And now you want to try and change the subject to something else.

And if the post-dating is taken into account, Oswald got exactly what he actually ordered, if not exactly quite what he might have expected.

Yeah, Oswald thought his rifle was the 36 inch model, so he made a 38 inch bag. Imagine the look on Oswald's face when on the Thursday night, his rifle wouldn't fit in the bag! Oops!
This is just more powerful evidence that Oswald ordered the rifle!
And many CT's like to believe that the cops made the ill fitting bag but why would the Dallas Police make the wrong sized bag when they actually had the weapon in their hands?

And now you want to try and change the subject to something else.

Yeah, whenever he's stuck, he does this!

JohnM

[Charles Collins]

Yeah, Oswald thought his rifle was the 36 inch model, so he made a 38 inch bag. Imagine the look on Oswald's face when on the Thursday night, his rifle wouldn't fit in the bag! Oops!
This is just more powerful evidence that Oswald ordered the rifle!
And many CT's like to believe that the cops made the ill fitting bag but why would the Dallas Police make the wrong sized bag when they actually had the weapon in their hands?



Yeah, whenever he's stuck, he does this!

JohnM

It does seem reasonable that LHO might have remembered the advertised length of 36” but never had a reason to measure the rifle’s actual length. To assume (mainly due to time constraints and logistics) that the remembered 36” length was correct when he fabricated the bag and making the bag 38” long seems very likely to me. Good point John!

[Martin Weidmann]

Yeah, Oswald thought his rifle was the 36 inch model, so he made a 38 inch bag. Imagine the look on Oswald's face when on the Thursday night, his rifle wouldn't fit in the bag! Oops!
This is just more powerful evidence that Oswald ordered the rifle!
And many CT's like to believe that the cops made the ill fitting bag but why would the Dallas Police make the wrong sized bag when they actually had the weapon in their hands?



Yeah, whenever he's stuck, he does this!

JohnM

Yeah, whenever he's stuck, he does this!

Says the guy who just tried to change the subject   

Yeah, Oswald thought his rifle was the 36 inch model, so he made a 38 inch bag. Imagine the look on Oswald's face when on the Thursday night, his rifle wouldn't fit in the bag! Oops!
This is just more powerful evidence that Oswald ordered the rifle!

Still unable to understand the difference between baseless selfserving speculation and actual evidence, I see.

There is no evidence that Oswald made any bag. According to the official narrative the bag was made at the TSBD, but nobody saw him anywhere near the wrapping machines. Frazier also did not see Oswald carry a bag to Irving on Thursday night and Marina and Ruth Paine also saw no bag.

So, only in a very confused and delusional mind can this be seen as "powerful evidence that Oswald ordered the rifle".

All it really exposes is the utter desperation of the LNs to present the most feeble case.