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Author Topic: The LHO Escape -- Panic and Shock  (Read 35134 times)

Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: The LHO Escape -- Panic and Shock
« Reply #176 on: December 09, 2023, 01:27:49 AM »
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Ok, in that Backyard photo, the rifle Oswald holding is an MC rifle and it looks like it’s probably closer to 40” in length than 36”

And it has a scope.

That’s about all that can be concluded except for maybe some notch detail on the stock that matches with the MC rifle that was mysteriously placed somehow on the 6th floor TSBD so that it would be found at 1:22 pm Nov 22/63.

Now idk what Oswald’s personality was exactly , but if I received a 40” rifle when I ordered by mail a 36” rifle, I’d kinda be angry about that and probably send the rifle back and demand to either get the rifle I wanted or give me my money back.

However, if somebody I knew fairly well (or thought I did) just GAVE me a 40” rifle that THEY had originally ordered as a 36” rifle then I would not care because I’m getting it FREE!

So this is how Oswald could easily have been set up, unbeknownst to him, somebody opened up a fake Oswald PO Box and added the name A..Hidell as a second name. Then they picked up the rifle when it arrived at the mailbox and then they just gave the rifle to the patsy Oswald.

The backyard photo may have been part of the plan or it might have just been coincidence, which none the less worked out well to further set up the patsy..

“So this is how Oswald could easily have been set up, unbeknownst to him, somebody opened up a fake Oswald PO Box and added the name A..Hidell as a second name. Then they picked up the rifle when it arrived at the mailbox and then they just gave the rifle to the patsy Oswald.”

The problem with this thought is the fact the pistol ordered from Seaport Traders by Oswald, using the Hidell alias, was delivered to the exact same Post Office Box using the alias A.J. Hidell as the carcano. The same Hidell alias used by Oswald to order the carcano from Kleins, was used to order the pistol from Seaport Traders. 

Tying both these weapons together is the M13 Holster strap used by Oswald as a sling on the carcano. A shoulder strap from the same shoulder holster that was designed for the USAF to hold the Smith and Wesson M13, a 2 1/2” barreled snub nose pistol used by the USAF, a pistol, similar to the Smith and Wesson pistol purchased by Oswald using the Hidell name, this strap was used by Oswald as a sling for the carcano.
=================================

A local L.A. FBI agent was dispatched to question Seaport Traders if they had a record of this revolver, serial number and purchase either through the Oswald or Hidell name. 

They did, and furnished the following documentation: an order coupon placed in a magazine with the Hidell name and a shipping manifest through Railway Express (licensed weapon carrier). It was a C.O.D purchase of $29.95, with $10 cash as a down payment, and the remainder to be paid upon delivery. 

Further link to Oswald was the P.O. Box 2915, which was opened by him in Dallas in October, 1962.[5]

Oswald’s Revolver (steveroeconsulting.wixsite.com)
===================

 

Purchase of the revolver[edit]

On October 9, 1962, Lee Harvey Oswald rented post office box number 2915 in Dallas, Texas.[7] On January 27, 1963, Oswald ordered a snub-nosed Smith & Wesson "Victory" Model .38 Special revolver from Seaport Traders of Los Angeles, using the name A. J. Hidell, and his post office box as address, for $29.95 (equivalent to $286 in 2022) plus postage and handling. It was shipped to him C.O.D. by rail on March 20, and due to policies on shipping of pistols to prevent them from being sent to minors, he was required to pick it up directly at the offices of the Railway Express Agency in Dallas.[8][9]

Magazine advertisement through which Oswald purchased the rifle (left column, third from top). The ad photo for a "6.5 Italian Carbine" actually shows a telescopically modified Carcano TS carbine, but by the time of Oswald's order Klein's was shipping the longer Carcano Model 91/38's.

On March 12, 1963, Oswald placed his second mail-order: this time it was for the mentioned "6.5 Italian Carbine" from Klein's Sporting Goods located in Chicago, as advertised in the February 1963 American Rifleman. Using the alias "Alek Hidell", a variation of the "A.J. Hidell" alias employed to purchase the Smith & Wesson pistol five weeks earlier, Oswald purchased the rifle (model not given in the advertisement), complete with an attached new 4x telescopic sight, for $19.95 (equivalent to $190 in 2022) plus $1.50 shipping. (The rifle alone – without the scope – was priced at $12.78.) Like the handgun, this was also shipped to Oswald at his post office box in Dallas, also on March 20. He picked up the rifle on March 2

 

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Re: The LHO Escape -- Panic and Shock
« Reply #176 on: December 09, 2023, 01:27:49 AM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: The LHO Escape -- Panic and Shock
« Reply #177 on: December 09, 2023, 02:22:26 AM »
“So this is how Oswald could easily have been set up, unbeknownst to him, somebody opened up a fake Oswald PO Box and added the name A..Hidell as a second name. Then they picked up the rifle when it arrived at the mailbox and then they just gave the rifle to the patsy Oswald.”

The problem with this thought is the fact the pistol ordered from Seaport Traders by Oswald, using the Hidell alias, was delivered to the exact same Post Office Box using the alias A.J. Hidell as the carcano. The same Hidell alias used by Oswald to order the carcano from Kleins, was used to order the pistol from Seaport Traders. 

Tying both these weapons together is the M13 Holster strap used by Oswald as a sling on the carcano. A shoulder strap from the same shoulder holster that was designed for the USAF to hold the Smith and Wesson M13, a 2 1/2” barreled snub nose pistol used by the USAF, a pistol, similar to the Smith and Wesson pistol purchased by Oswald using the Hidell name, this strap was used by Oswald as a sling for the carcano.
=================================

A local L.A. FBI agent was dispatched to question Seaport Traders if they had a record of this revolver, serial number and purchase either through the Oswald or Hidell name. 

They did, and furnished the following documentation: an order coupon placed in a magazine with the Hidell name and a shipping manifest through Railway Express (licensed weapon carrier). It was a C.O.D purchase of $29.95, with $10 cash as a down payment, and the remainder to be paid upon delivery. 

Further link to Oswald was the P.O. Box 2915, which was opened by him in Dallas in October, 1962.[5]

Oswald’s Revolver (steveroeconsulting.wixsite.com)
===================

 

Purchase of the revolver[edit]

On October 9, 1962, Lee Harvey Oswald rented post office box number 2915 in Dallas, Texas.[7] On January 27, 1963, Oswald ordered a snub-nosed Smith & Wesson "Victory" Model .38 Special revolver from Seaport Traders of Los Angeles, using the name A. J. Hidell, and his post office box as address, for $29.95 (equivalent to $286 in 2022) plus postage and handling. It was shipped to him C.O.D. by rail on March 20, and due to policies on shipping of pistols to prevent them from being sent to minors, he was required to pick it up directly at the offices of the Railway Express Agency in Dallas.[8][9]

Magazine advertisement through which Oswald purchased the rifle (left column, third from top). The ad photo for a "6.5 Italian Carbine" actually shows a telescopically modified Carcano TS carbine, but by the time of Oswald's order Klein's was shipping the longer Carcano Model 91/38's.

On March 12, 1963, Oswald placed his second mail-order: this time it was for the mentioned "6.5 Italian Carbine" from Klein's Sporting Goods located in Chicago, as advertised in the February 1963 American Rifleman. Using the alias "Alek Hidell", a variation of the "A.J. Hidell" alias employed to purchase the Smith & Wesson pistol five weeks earlier, Oswald purchased the rifle (model not given in the advertisement), complete with an attached new 4x telescopic sight, for $19.95 (equivalent to $190 in 2022) plus $1.50 shipping. (The rifle alone – without the scope – was priced at $12.78.) Like the handgun, this was also shipped to Oswald at his post office box in Dallas, also on March 20. He picked up the rifle on March 2

Also, Robert Oswald wrote in his book “Lee” that it is the same post office box that he used in his written correspondence with his brother Lee during that time period.


Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: The LHO Escape -- Panic and Shock
« Reply #178 on: December 09, 2023, 10:54:27 AM »
Also, Robert Oswald wrote in his book “Lee” that it is the same post office box that he used in his written correspondence with his brother Lee during that time period.

Even better yet. Now there is supposedly some kind of a question as to who ordered and took possession of the rifle, when the mailbox Oswald used to accept personal mail, is also used to buy not one but two mail order weapons from two completely different companies using the same alias, an alias known to be used by Oswald in New Orleans. It completely staggers the imagination that anyone could even begin to float the idea that he was framed or that it was really Oswald who purchased the rifle. 

You must have to leave all self respect and intellect at the door when you decide to believe there was some kind of a conspiracy in this case.

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Re: The LHO Escape -- Panic and Shock
« Reply #178 on: December 09, 2023, 10:54:27 AM »


Offline Mitch Todd

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Re: The LHO Escape -- Panic and Shock
« Reply #179 on: December 10, 2023, 01:34:44 AM »
Well, clearly, you can make it up, because I never said or thought that.
This is exactly what you've been saying the whole time. And now you claim you didn't say it?


But now you brought it up, what exactly was the purpose of the different department numbers if it wasn't to differentiate between different products?
Back in the day, this was done by mail order houses to differentiate between different ads. If you dig around Klein's ads in different publications, and different issues of each publication, the department number on each ad was unique. And it always appeared on the order blank part. Doing this allowed the marketing department to determine which ads brought in orders, and which did not. In turn, it allowed Klein's (or any other contemporary mail order outfit) to target their advertising spending efficiently.

Offline Mitch Todd

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Re: The LHO Escape -- Panic and Shock
« Reply #180 on: December 10, 2023, 02:05:33 AM »
OK. It's faint enough in the versions I'm looking at that I can't tell if it's supposed to be "358" or "633" or maybe something else, even with glasses. Even if it is 358, it's set off by itself, and not associated with the C20-T750 order code the way the other identifiers like the control number, item description, and serial number are.

So, after John corrected you, you still found the need to continue to argue for argument's sake? How typical of you....

Btw, you do understand/know that there is no control number, item description or serial number on the order form, don't you?
They all are on Waldman 7, which got it's basic information from the order form that only contained the order code and the department number on it.
By law, the serial number of the firearm had to be carefully recorded when it was sold. But Kleins sold any number of other items besides firearms --scopes, parkas, canoes, and lord knows what else, that did not require such careful recordkeeping. So the base order form didn't need a specific field for serial number or control number, since those were only used for firearms. But you notice that the stamp/autotype detailing order of a C20-T750 has specific fields for control number and serial number and includes the item description. But not for the ad's "department" number (assuming that's what it is). The department number, if that's indeed what it is, is randomly squeezed into some free space between two lines of text in another section of the order form. It's not associated with the line item representing the rifle.


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Re: The LHO Escape -- Panic and Shock
« Reply #180 on: December 10, 2023, 02:05:33 AM »


Offline John Mytton

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Re: The LHO Escape -- Panic and Shock
« Reply #181 on: December 10, 2023, 08:22:54 AM »

JohnM: Says the man who thinks that the exact same Product Item Number should be differentiated by a magazine coupon? You can't make this up, Hilarious!

Martin: Well, clearly, you can make it up, because I never said or thought that.

Mitch: This is exactly what you've been saying the whole time. And now you claim you didn't say it?


 Thumb1:

Yeah, it's pretty crazy. I was going to respond to Martin's game but I could see another pointless argument about semantics where he'll say he never said the precise words "magazine coupon", then once again he'll realize his mistake and backpedal like a man possessed. Rinse wash repeat. Yawn!

JohnM

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: The LHO Escape -- Panic and Shock
« Reply #182 on: December 10, 2023, 03:17:02 PM »
This is exactly what you've been saying the whole time. And now you claim you didn't say it?

Back in the day, this was done by mail order houses to differentiate between different ads. If you dig around Klein's ads in different publications, and different issues of each publication, the department number on each ad was unique. And it always appeared on the order blank part. Doing this allowed the marketing department to determine which ads brought in orders, and which did not. In turn, it allowed Klein's (or any other contemporary mail order outfit) to target their advertising spending efficiently.

Back in the day, this was done by mail order houses to differentiate between different ads.

I don't believe it. How would you even know this? Unless you can actually show evidence for this absurd claim, it's pretty obvious you just made this up. What reason would they have to differentiate between ads?


By law, the serial number of the firearm had to be carefully recorded when it was sold. But Kleins sold any number of other items besides firearms --scopes, parkas, canoes, and lord knows what else, that did not require such careful recordkeeping. So the base order form didn't need a specific field for serial number or control number, since those were only used for firearms. But you notice that the stamp/autotype detailing order of a C20-T750 has specific fields for control number and serial number and includes the item description. But not for the ad's "department" number (assuming that's what it is). The department number, if that's indeed what it is, is randomly squeezed into some free space between two lines of text in another section of the order form. It's not associated with the line item representing the rifle.


By law, the serial number of the firearm had to be carefully recorded when it was sold.

True, and not only that. There needed to be a registration of any weapon being sent in the mail. So, where is that paperwork for the rifle?

But not for the ad's "department" number (assuming that's what it is). The department number, if that's indeed what it is, is randomly squeezed into some free space between two lines of text in another section of the order form. It's not associated with the line item representing the rifle.

More selfserving flawed made up nonsense.


« Last Edit: December 10, 2023, 05:00:55 PM by Martin Weidmann »

Online Charles Collins

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Re: The LHO Escape -- Panic and Shock
« Reply #183 on: December 10, 2023, 06:55:59 PM »
1927 — Congress passes the “Nonmailable Firearms Act of 1927, making it illegal to use the U.S. mail to ship “pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person.”

A typical rifle would not be considered concealable. Pistols, etc could be sent via private carriers. “Registration of any weapon sent in the mail” wasn’t a part of the legislation.

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Re: The LHO Escape -- Panic and Shock
« Reply #183 on: December 10, 2023, 06:55:59 PM »