The LHO Escape -- Panic and Shock

[Martin Weidmann]

Forgetting for a moment that almost a Dozen eyewitnesses confirmed seeing Oswald carrying a gun close to the Tippit crime scene, of course the location where Tippit was shot is in between the two confirmed locations where I said Oswald was, just because the murdering Oswald was avoiding the main roads and was not walking directly as the crow flies only adds to his consciousness of guilt.

And getting back to how unlucky Oswald was, out of the close to 400 square miles of Dallas, here's Oswald who in two confirmed locations, first the Rooming House was only 0.8 miles away and secondly the Texas Theatre was just 0.7 miles away from the Tippit crime scene! And considering that no cop in Dallas was shot in years, the time of Tippit being shot just happens to be between those two confirmed sightings of Oswald.
What an unlucky son of a gun.



JohnM

More BS. The photograph clearly shows that the 10th street location is completely on the other side of Beckley than the Texas Theater.

By your "logic" even Jack Ruby's appartment would be between the roominghouse and the Texas Theater.

[Martin Weidmann]

Thank you, so there is more than a shred of evidence that Oswald owned a rifle.

JohnM

None of the Klein's documents actually show that Oswald owned a rifle. At best, the order form and money order proves that Oswald filled out those documents. And of course, a photograph of Oswald holding a rifle, taken some 8 months prior to the assassination, does not prove ownership of a rifle in November 1963.

When you have to misrepresent what I actually said, by leaving out part of it, you've already lost the argument. It's the normal dishonesty that I have learned to come to expect from you.

Btw, anybody who claims that somebody holding a rifle in a photograph eight months ago is actual proof of ownership of that rifle needs his head examined.

[Martin Weidmann]

All we have is a picture of Oswald holding the rifle and documents that confirm he was sent the rifle.  His prints were also found on the rifle.  HA HA HA.  Why haven't you invented a time machine to prove it to the subjective satisfaction of a loon?

You don't have documents that confirm Oswald was sent a rifle. All you've got is an internal document of Klein's with a handwritten circle around the letters "PP". There is no proof whatsoever that a rifle was actually sent.

Also, Oswald's prints were not found on the rifle. The FBI tested the rifle for prints in the night after the murder and found no prints. All you've got is an evidence card which allegedly has part of Oswald's palmprint on it which did not surface until after Oswald had been killed. It's just one more example of evidence suddenly popping up when it is needed.

[Fergus O'Brien]

Oswald must have had the worst luck of any person in history.  Imagine how unlucky that it was that he broke his normal routine to visit the very location where he kept his rifle on the night before the assassination.  That he left his wedding ring that morning.  That he carried a long package to work.  That he was the only TSBD employee to leave identifiable prints on the SN boxes.  Wow.  He was like Mr. Magoo in that old cartoon.  Marina confirmed the money was left on Oswald's last visit.  You try to rebut this by suggesting that the author had CIA connections.  Let me get this one straight.  You think that long after Oswald's death that the CIA needed to influence a book to put out a story that Oswald left some money on his last visit?  Why?  He was dead and the official investigations had linked him to the crime.  And what was in the long packages that he carried that morning if not curtain rods?  How did Oswald's rifle make its way from the Paine garage to the 6th floor of Oswald's place of employment?  Why couldn't his visit wait one more day to his usual Friday visit?  Why did Oswald flee the scene within minutes of the assassination and get a gun?

well i see that you know enough not to try to deny miss mcmillans connections to the cia . her book came out in 1977 if memory serves me correctly , wasnt the hsca being put in place at that point ? yet another so called investigation that had to deceive and lie in order to find oswald as the lone assassin  . and she was already very interested in mr oswald as early as 1959 .LONG AFTER ? i dont think so .

regarding the money at the paines what priscilla said is neither here nor there , because the money was found in an old wallet where oswald left it , and had been leaving it for weeks and even prior to living at the paines . that money is not suspicious , nor is how it came to be at the paines .

as for routines we are talking about around a 5 week period of time . oswald did not go home on friday one week . the week prior he did not go home at all . prior to that he had stayed at the paines on atleast one holliday .WHAT ROUTINE ? if we were talking about a 6 month or 12 month period you might have some point , but even then you would have to actually show routine , and you have not .

only two people said they saw this package you speak of , and from what they said and described neither of them support your view that oswald carried a broken down carcano in a package that had to have been atleast 36 inches long . yet you still maintain that oswald had a rifle , broke it down , put it in a sack and carried it in such a manner that would require him to have the arms of an orangutan . but hey .

wow oswald worked in a building , he worked on several floors including the 6th floor . his job was filling book orders from boxes of books on those floors including the 6th floor . he filled orders that morning and was seen working filling orders specifically from those very floors and you think its unusual that his prints should be found ? . how many prints did the key stone i mean dallas police destroy that afternoon ? . exactly how many police prints were found ? .

bugliosi what ? 3 decades after oswalds death still felt it important enough to deceive his readers by telling them such things as oswald lied and said he ate lunch with jarmin and norman in hopes of getting an alibi when the interrogation notes show that oswald said he ate alone . he further used the money saved for weeks if not months to deceptively say that oswald left it there for marina knowing he would never return , while omitting marinas testimony in which she said oswald told her he would not be back that friday evening but he would return on saturday instead . i guess he thought that might spoil his story .

regarding what ever oswald carried you cant prove it was a rifle , in fact your only two witnesses dispute you on this . so you cant prove it was a rifle but you expect me to prove it was curtain rods ? , when exactly did i claim oswald carried curtain rods ? . i can tell you what oswald said he carried , an apple and a sandwich . you can prove the rifle in evidence found at the depository was oswalds , well given that the rifle we were told was ordered was the short 36 inch model and the model in the depository is a long 40 inch model well you already have a problem .

as for why oswald did not wait till friday to visit marina well some times some things are just too important too wait . like saving ones marriage .

[Martin Weidmann]

I see hours later you added more than your first two words "Utter BS", and you even personalized those words against me with a nasty little sentence, which hurts oh so much!

And next comes the meaningless rhetoric of what you initially were trying to say.

There's two ways of looking at the JFKA;

1) The Occam's razor approach, Oswald ordered a mail order rifle and took it to work and killed the President.

Or

2) The CT approach, where everything and anything needs to be possible, or plain and simply any conspiracy just won't work.

The following compiled list reflects the effort for just a tiny fraction of a planned conspiracy, the faking of Oswald's Hidell alias.

The Hidell ID was manufactured by conspirators
The Hidell ID was planted by the Police
The Hidell ID negatives were manufactured by conspirators
The Hidell ID negatives were planted by conspirators in the Paine residence
The Hidell name was inserted by conspirators into the New Orleans post box application records.
The Hidell name was connected To Oswald's New Orleans Chapter of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee by conspirators.
The Hidell name was used as The "Chapter President" of Oswald's made up Cuba Committee by conspirators.
The Hidell name was forged by conspirators onto Oswald's "Fair Play for Cuba" leaflets
The Hidell name was written on membership cards by conspirators other than Marina, who must have lied.
The Hidell name was a play on "Fidel" according to Marina who must have lied
The Hidell name was forged onto the Kliens coupon
The Hidell Kleins coupon addressed to Oswald was forged onto the Kliens microfilm
The Hidell name was forged onto the Kleins envelope
The Hidell Kleins Envelope addressed to Oswald was forged onto the Kleins microfilm
The Hidell name on on the Kleins Coupon found by Waldman on the night following the assassination was forgotten?
The Hidell rifle was never sent to Oswald's PO box
The Hidell newly manufactured microfilm was substituted at some point with Kleins business records microfilm.
The Hidell ID was admitted by Oswald or Police lied
The Hidell ID was admitted by Oswald or a Postal official lied
The Hidell ID was asked of Oswald or an FBI agent lied
The Hidell name was forged onto Oswald Job applications as a reference
The Hidell rifle was photographed with Oswald by either forgery or trickery
The Hidell rifle was planted on the 6th floor of Oswald's work by conspirators
The Hidell revolver coupon was forged by conspirators
The Hidell name was forged onto the Seaport-Traders paperwork
The Hidell revolver was lied about by the Police
The Hidell revolver was substituted by Police
And on and on it goes!

But instead when faced with their very own posts, the obvious enormity of conspiracy and the amount of deception required, CT's like Martin say blank faced without a worry in the World, and I'm paraphrasing here, "any conspiracy I've talked about endlessly for thousands of posts was just very small with possibly just a few people involved" and yes this is seriously how they think!

JohnM

I'm not going to waste a lot of time dealing with the whole list because most of it, as per usual is just drivel. Instead, to demonstrate clearly just how superficial and narrowminded John really thinks about this case, I'll give a couple of examples.

The Hidell ID was manufactured by conspirators
The Hidell ID was planted by the Police
The Hidell ID negatives were manufactured by conspirators
The Hidell ID negatives were planted by conspirators in the Paine residence

There is no evidence that Oswald was carrying the Hidell ID in his wallet when he was arrested. Paul Bentley stated that he took the wallet from Oswald in the car and found only documents in name of Oswald. Not a word about Hidell. There is no report by any of the officers in the car with Oswald that the Hidell ID was found on his person. On the other hand, there is evidence that a wallet was found at the Tippit murder scene which did contain identification for Oswald and Hidell. There is also no ambiguity about the fact that Gus Rose was the first DPD officer who asked Oswald at the police station about the Hidell alias and that he did so after a still, to this day, unidentified officer gave him a wallet and told him it belonged to Oswald.

There is also no contempary record that negatives were found at Ruth Paine's "the gift that kept on giving" garage. John, of course, is too superficial to deal with these facts honestly and prefers to simply state his usual BS as if it is "rock solid evidence".

The Hidell name was inserted by conspirators into the New Orleans post box application records.
The Hidell name was connected To Oswald's New Orleans Chapter of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee by conspirators.
The Hidell name was used as The "Chapter President" of Oswald's made up Cuba Committee by conspirators.
The Hidell name was forged by conspirators onto Oswald's "Fair Play for Cuba" leaflets
The Hidell name was written on membership cards by conspirators other than Marina, who must have lied.

There is no reason to assume that "conspirators" did any of this. Having said that, Oswald could well have been manipulated into using the Hidell alias to apply for a N.O. Post box and use it in connection with the "Fair play for Cuba". But even if he did, how does something that Oswald possibly did in New Orleans, months prior to the assassination, somehow becomes "evidence" in the assassination case? The answer is simple; the actual evidence against Oswald is so weak that they (the WC and FBI) needed to paint the darkest picture of him so that any easily persuaded fool would believe their flawed narrative.

The Hidell name was forged onto the Kliens coupon
The Hidell Kleins coupon addressed to Oswald was forged onto the Kliens microfilm
The Hidell name was forged onto the Kleins envelope
The Hidell Kleins Envelope addressed to Oswald was forged onto the Kleins microfilm
The Hidell name on on the Kleins Coupon found by Waldman on the night following the assassination was forgotten?
The Hidell rifle was never sent to Oswald's PO box
The Hidell newly manufactured microfilm was substituted at some point with Kleins business records microfilm.

Again, John ignores are far more likely and possible explanation. The easiest way to get the order form documents onto Klein's microfilm is to simply manipulate Oswald to fill out those forms and mail them to Klein's. We don't know what actually happened after that. What we do know is that Oswald ordered a 36" rifle and the MC found at the TSBD was a 40" rifle. The explanation, for the LNs, for this that Klein's simply had run out of 36" rifles and thus sent Oswald a 40" instead. There is no evidence for that, just as there is no evidence that any rifle was ever sent to Oswald. There is no shipping document and no proof that Oswald, or anybody else, ever collected a rifle at the Dallas postoffice. All there is, is an internal document, Waldman #7, which shows a handwritten circle around the letters "PP", which according to Waldman (who himself was not involved in the transaction) means that the item was sent by post. Could Waldman actually confirm that this is what really happened in this instance? No of course not. He wasn't even asked.

But instead when faced with their very own posts, the obvious enormity of conspiracy and the amount of deception required, CT's like Martin say blank faced without a worry in the World, and I'm paraphrasing here, "any conspiracy I've talked about endlessly for thousands of posts was just very small with possibly just a few people involved" and yes this is seriously how they think!

In three examples I have just demonstrated just how superficial John really is. In every example that are several possible explanations which were never really resolved and John, who is so desperate to maintain the "Oswald did it alone" mantra just selects the most simple explanantion and ignores everything else.

The irony is that in the three examples (as well as in the ones not discussed) it would only require a couple of persons to actually manipulate Oswald and get him to do things that can later be used against him. But don't tell John that, because he is to narrowminded to accept any of it as a possibility.

[Martin Weidmann]

A good one John, but sadly, that really is the depth of their mindsets. And the reason the controversy will go on and on and on.

Wrong. The reason the controversy will go on is simply that the evidence against Oswald is so weak and inconclusive that any rational person has to conclude that there was something else going on than what the official narrative tells us.

It may well be that Oswald did it alone, but in order to come to such a conclusion you need conclusive evidence and not a highly questionable circumstantial case based, for the biggest part at least, on assumptions and speculations.

You want me and other to believe Oswald was the lone gunman? All it takes is persuasive evidence and if you can't present that, you really shouldn't be whining about those nasty people who don't believe your fairytale story.

[Fergus O'Brien]

I see hours later you added more than your first two words "Utter BS", and you even personalized those words against me with a nasty little sentence, which hurts oh so much!

And next comes the meaningless rhetoric of what you initially were trying to say.

There's two ways of looking at the JFKA;

1) The Occam's razor approach, Oswald ordered a mail order rifle and took it to work and killed the President.

Or

2) The CT approach, where everything and anything needs to be possible, or plain and simply any conspiracy just won't work.

The following compiled list reflects the effort for just a tiny fraction of a planned conspiracy, the faking of Oswald's Hidell alias.

The Hidell ID was manufactured by conspirators
The Hidell ID was planted by the Police
The Hidell ID negatives were manufactured by conspirators
The Hidell ID negatives were planted by conspirators in the Paine residence
The Hidell name was inserted by conspirators into the New Orleans post box application records.
The Hidell name was connected To Oswald's New Orleans Chapter of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee by conspirators.
The Hidell name was used as The "Chapter President" of Oswald's made up Cuba Committee by conspirators.
The Hidell name was forged by conspirators onto Oswald's "Fair Play for Cuba" leaflets
The Hidell name was written on membership cards by conspirators other than Marina, who must have lied.
The Hidell name was a play on "Fidel" according to Marina who must have lied
The Hidell name was forged onto the Kliens coupon
The Hidell Kleins coupon addressed to Oswald was forged onto the Kliens microfilm
The Hidell name was forged onto the Kleins envelope
The Hidell Kleins Envelope addressed to Oswald was forged onto the Kleins microfilm
The Hidell name on on the Kleins Coupon found by Waldman on the night following the assassination was forgotten?
The Hidell rifle was never sent to Oswald's PO box
The Hidell newly manufactured microfilm was substituted at some point with Kleins business records microfilm.
The Hidell ID was admitted by Oswald or Police lied
The Hidell ID was admitted by Oswald or a Postal official lied
The Hidell ID was asked of Oswald or an FBI agent lied
The Hidell name was forged onto Oswald Job applications as a reference
The Hidell rifle was photographed with Oswald by either forgery or trickery
The Hidell rifle was planted on the 6th floor of Oswald's work by conspirators
The Hidell revolver coupon was forged by conspirators
The Hidell name was forged onto the Seaport-Traders paperwork
The Hidell revolver was lied about by the Police
The Hidell revolver was substituted by Police
And on and on it goes!

But instead when faced with their very own posts, the obvious enormity of conspiracy and the amount of deception required, CT's like Martin say blank faced without a worry in the World, and I'm paraphrasing here, "any conspiracy I've talked about endlessly for thousands of posts was just very small with possibly just a few people involved" and yes this is seriously how they think!

JohnM

occams razor ?

"Occam's razor (or Ockham's razor) is a principle from philosophy. Suppose an event has two possible explanations. The explanation that requires the fewest assumptions is usually correct. Another way of saying it is that the more assumptions you have to make, the more unlikely an explanation."

so in essence occams razor is that all things being considered the simplest explanation is the most likely explanation . and you say that applies to the warren commission (and all other so called investigations) determined version of events . but i should think that occams razor was intended to be used not only with evidence , with logic but also WITH TRUTH . if the simplest explanation that you speak about here required omission , distortion , sealing of evidence and documents , burying of documents such as the stroud document and ignoring or actively seeking to dispute witness who had independent corroboration such as vicky adams , sealing away contradictory testimonies such as the hsca was guilty of , falsely misrepresenting wound locations and in fact outright lying HOW THE HELL CAN YOU SAY THAT SATISFIES THE OCCAMS RAZOR METHOD OF GETTING AT THE TRUTH ?. but i have dealt with very many lone nut advocates in my time and over a lot of years . and i have to say that in all cases they have one of two issues (some suffer with both )  that stick out like the proverbial sore thumb , well two issues at minimal lol . one being that to be a lone nut advocate one either must be deluded , the other that they simply cant deal with the evidence in this case without ignoring it or trying to deceive in regard it .

 

[Richard Smith]

well i see that you know enough not to try to deny miss mcmillans connections to the cia . her book came out in 1977 if memory serves me correctly , wasnt the hsca being put in place at that point ? yet another so called investigation that had to deceive and lie in order to find oswald as the lone assassin  . and she was already very interested in mr oswald as early as 1959 .LONG AFTER ? i dont think so .

regarding the money at the paines what priscilla said is neither here nor there , because the money was found in an old wallet where oswald left it , and had been leaving it for weeks and even prior to living at the paines . that money is not suspicious , nor is how it came to be at the paines .

as for routines we are talking about around a 5 week period of time . oswald did not go home on friday one week . the week prior he did not go home at all . prior to that he had stayed at the paines on atleast one holliday .WHAT ROUTINE ? if we were talking about a 6 month or 12 month period you might have some point , but even then you would have to actually show routine , and you have not .

only two people said they saw this package you speak of , and from what they said and described neither of them support your view that oswald carried a broken down carcano in a package that had to have been atleast 36 inches long . yet you still maintain that oswald had a rifle , broke it down , put it in a sack and carried it in such a manner that would require him to have the arms of an orangutan . but hey .

wow oswald worked in a building , he worked on several floors including the 6th floor . his job was filling book orders from boxes of books on those floors including the 6th floor . he filled orders that morning and was seen working filling orders specifically from those very floors and you think its unusual that his prints should be found ? . how many prints did the key stone i mean dallas police destroy that afternoon ? . exactly how many police prints were found ? .

bugliosi what ? 3 decades after oswalds death still felt it important enough to deceive his readers by telling them such things as oswald lied and said he ate lunch with jarmin and norman in hopes of getting an alibi when the interrogation notes show that oswald said he ate alone . he further used the money saved for weeks if not months to deceptively say that oswald left it there for marina knowing he would never return , while omitting marinas testimony in which she said oswald told her he would not be back that friday evening but he would return on saturday instead . i guess he thought that might spoil his story .

regarding what ever oswald carried you cant prove it was a rifle , in fact your only two witnesses dispute you on this . so you cant prove it was a rifle but you expect me to prove it was curtain rods ? , when exactly did i claim oswald carried curtain rods ? . i can tell you what oswald said he carried , an apple and a sandwich . you can prove the rifle in evidence found at the depository was oswalds , well given that the rifle we were told was ordered was the short 36 inch model and the model in the depository is a long 40 inch model well you already have a problem .

as for why oswald did not wait till friday to visit marina well some times some things are just too important too wait . like saving ones marriage .

When you go down the rabbit hole that people are working for the CIA to frame a long dead Oswald and discounting the evidence, we are in fantasy land.  The facts are that Oswald made an unusual trip to the Paine residence on a Thursday.  There was no apparent reason for him to deviate from his normal schedule.  He provided no such reason to his wife.  He told Frazier that he was getting curtain rods.  There was no urgency to do so, and we know that Oswald neither needed nor took any curtain rods with him on Friday.   We do know that he stored his rifle in the Paine's garage.  When the police arrived just a few hours after the assassination and asked his wife about a gun she directs them to the garage.  That rifle is gone and can't be accounted for in any other way except as the rifle found on the 6th floor.  It's association to Oswald is confirmed by his print and the serial number matching the rifle sent to his PO Box.  The person who drove Oswald to work that very morning observed him carrying a long package.  The package was so unusual that he asked about it.  Oswald told him it contained curtain rods and was not his lunch.  Later, Oswald tells the police that he carried only his lunch.  The only long bag associated with Oswald is the one found on the 6th floor.  Empty.  No package with curtain rods or anything else is ever found.  Bullet casings from Oswald's rifle are found by the window from which witnesses observed the rifle at the moment of the assassination.  Oswald has no credible alibi.  Instead he flees the scene without pausing to inquire about what is going on or asking his employer for permission to leave for the day.  Suddenly, it is off to the movies in the middle of the day while history in unfolding around him.  Oswald, the guy who read JFK's book and was a student of politics and history is not interested.  On the way to the movies, he obtains a gun.  He is identified by several witnesses as the person at the scene of the Tippit murder with a gun.   It is a drumbeat of guilt.