The LHO Escape -- Panic and Shock

[John Mytton]

So, we can't rely on anything that Klein's told us? Is that what you are trying to say?

What a stupid leap of self serving convenience, Jerry didn't say that at all.

JohnM

[Martin Weidmann]

Just like your silly F1 car analogy which I ripped apart, here again you are very, very wrong!

Here's the only relevant Kleins ad which applies to the precise timeframe of when Oswald purchased the rifle



And here's the April American Rifleman Kleins ad.



You boys should have consulted me first before accepting Gil Jesus's typical misrepresentation of the evidence.

Bye.

JohnM

And here's the April American Rifleman Kleins ad.

Who cares what the add in April was? By then the BY photos had already been taken, if the official narrative is to be believed.

If any rifle was sent at all, there is no reason to assume that a 40" MC rifle was sent instead of a 36".
According to Waldman C20-T750 was ordered and C20-T750 was sent. There is no mention of a 40" rifle being sent.
In fact Waldman doesn't even know (he only has reason to believe) that the rifle that was ordered was in fact shipped with a scope mounted.

Mr. WALDMAN. Our catalog No. C20-T750, which was the number indicated on the coupon prepared by A. Hidell, designates a rifle with scope attached. And we would have so shipped it unless the customer specifically specified that he did not wish to have it attached. There is nothing in our records to indicate that there was any request made by the customer, and therefore we would have every reason to believe that it was shipped as a rifle with scope-mounted.


You boys should have consulted me first before accepting Gil Jesus's typical misrepresentation of the evidence.

Hilarious...never in a million years. You can't even be believed when you claim your name is Mytton!

[Martin Weidmann]

What a stupid leap of self serving convenience, Jerry didn't say that at all.

JohnM

Since when does Jerry need you to answer a question directed to him?

[Jerry Organ]

What a stupid leap of self serving convenience, Jerry didn't say that at all.

JohnM

Thanks, John. You handled it better than I would have. Don't want anybody thinking I believed Waldman lied under oath or some shadowy figures forged microfilm.

BTW, I wonder how many people thought those ads in the back of 1960s magazines were 100% reliable or up-to-date. They must have been disappointed when their X-Ray Specs didn't work or the ants on the Ant Farm weren't wearing overalls. It's like Ralphy slugging gallons of Ovaltine so he could get his Orphan Annie Secret Society Decoder Pin.

[Martin Weidmann]

Thanks, John. You handled it better than I would have. Don't want anybody thinking I believed Waldman lied under oath or some shadowy figures forged microfilm.

BTW, I wonder how many people thought those ads in the back of 1960s magazines were 100% reliable or up-to-date. They must have been disappointed when their X-Ray Specs didn't work or the ants on the Ant Farm weren't wearing overalls. It's like Ralphy slugging gallons of Ovaltine so he could get his Orphan Annie Secret Society Decoder Pin.

Don't want anybody thinking I believed Waldman lied under oath or some shadowy figures forged microfilm.

Nobody suggested that. Why would you even think about that?

BTW, I wonder how many people thought those ads in the back of 1960s magazines were 100% reliable or up-to-date.

So, what you are actually saying is that ads in 1960's were not reliable or up to date. Ok, but how does this relate to Klein's? Were their adds not reliable? Is that what you are saying, and if so, do you have evidence to support that?

[Jerry Organ]

Don't want anybody thinking I believed Waldman lied under oath or some shadowy figures forged microfilm.

Nobody suggested that. Why would you even think about that?

BTW, I wonder how many people thought those ads in the back of 1960s magazines were 100% reliable or up-to-date.

So, what you are actually saying is that ads in 1960's were not reliable or up to date. Ok, but how does this relate to Klein's? Were their adds not reliable? Is that what you are saying, and if so, do you have evidence to support that?

Who said all the Klein's ads were always unreliable?

The February ad in question (Honest JohnM provided the right one) showed that if one ordered an individual Carcano, the ad showed a M91 (originally 50" but shortened) and the text said it would be 36" long and 5 1/2 lbs. If one believes that ad was literally accurate, then they must believe Klein's was mailing out M91s that weighed 5 1/2 lbs.

One reason why I believe they were filling orders with the Carcano M91/38 40" Short Rifles was the price $12.88. It costed Klein's a dollar more-per-unit to purchase the Short Rifles when the smaller TS model (which had been selling at $11.88) was no longer available. The April ad showed the specs were a bit more accurate (40" length and 7 lbs), and the price was $12.88.

[Martin Weidmann]

Who said all the Klein's ads were always unreliable?

The February ad in question (Honest JohnM provided the right one) showed that if one ordered an individual Carcano, the ad showed a M91 (originally 50" but shortened) and the text said it would be 36" long and 5 1/2 lbs. If one believes that ad was literally accurate, then they must believe Klein's was mailing out M91s that weighed 5 1/2 lbs.

One reason why I believe they were filling orders with the Carcano M91/38 40" Short Rifles was the price $12.88. It costed Klein's a dollar more-per-unit to purchase the Short Rifles when the smaller TS model (which had been selling at $11.88) was no longer available. The April ad showed the specs were a bit more accurate (40" length and 7 lbs), and the price was $12.88.

Who said all the Klein's ads were always unreliable?

Nobody. I just asked you for clarification about what you said.

The February ad in question (Honest JohnM provided the right one) showed that if one ordered an individual Carcano, the ad showed a M91 (originally 50" but shortened) and the text said it would be 36" long and 5 1/2 lbs. If one believes that ad was literally accurate, then they must believe Klein's was mailing out M91s that weighed 5 1/2 lbs.

Honest JohnM? Really... do you want me to take you seriously?

As for the February ad, regardless of what it showed (and I'll take your word for it as far as the image goes, as I have no knowledge about rifles), the description of the rifle on offer was pretty clear. They offered a 36" long MC rifle, so if I had ordered one, that's what I would expect to receive.

One reason why I believe they were filling orders with the Carcano M91/38 40" Short Rifles was the price $12.88. It costed Klein's a dollar more-per-unit to purchase the Short Rifles when the smaller TS model (which had been selling at $11.88) was no longer available. The April ad showed the specs were a bit more accurate (40" length and 7 lbs), and the price was $12.88.

There are two problems with this reasoning. First of all, the rifle wasn't ordered from the April add and was in fact - if the official narrative is to be believed - already shipped and photographed in Oswald's hands before the April add was actually published and, secondly, Klein's gunsmith, Westra, is on record, in the HSCA files, that Klein's did not mount scopes on 40" rifles.

And then there is this;

One reason why I believe they were filling orders with the Carcano M91/38 40" Short Rifles was the price $12.88.

If Klein's was sending out rifles that were not really ordered, instead of those that were ordered, how can they be considered to be reliable?

[Mitch Todd]

And here's the April American Rifleman Kleins ad.

Who cares what the add in April was? By then the BY photos had already been taken, if the official narrative is to be believed.

In North America, issues of monthly magazines tend to be off by one or more months. See here for reference:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cover_date

In the case of American Rifleman, the April issue was delivered at the beginning of March. As such, the Klein's ad shows the status of Klein's inventory for March, 1963. Anyone who ordered C20-T750 in March was ordering a 40" long rifle.