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Author Topic: The LHO Escape -- Panic and Shock  (Read 32973 times)

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: The LHO Escape -- Panic and Shock
« Reply #176 on: December 08, 2023, 08:13:45 PM »
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Says the man who thinks that the exact same Product Item Number should be differentiated by a magazine coupon? You can't make this up, Hilarious!

JohnM

Well, clearly, you can make it up, because I never said or thought that.

But now you brought it up, what exactly was the purpose of the different department numbers if it wasn't to differentiate between different products?

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Re: The LHO Escape -- Panic and Shock
« Reply #176 on: December 08, 2023, 08:13:45 PM »


Offline John Mytton

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Re: The LHO Escape -- Panic and Shock
« Reply #177 on: December 08, 2023, 08:19:31 PM »
what exactly was the purpose of the different department numbers if it wasn't to differentiate between different products?

Mr. BELIN. Can you just give us one or more of the magazines in which this coupon might have been taken?
Mr. WALDMAN. Well, this coupon was specifically taken from American Rifleman Magazine, issue of February 1963. It's identified by the department number which is shown as--now, if I can read this--shown as Department 358 on the coupon.






JohnM
« Last Edit: December 08, 2023, 08:47:51 PM by John Mytton »

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: The LHO Escape -- Panic and Shock
« Reply #178 on: December 08, 2023, 09:03:21 PM »
Mr. BELIN. Can you just give us one or more of the magazines in which this coupon might have been taken?
Mr. WALDMAN. Well, this coupon was specifically taken from American Rifleman Magazine, issue of February 1963. It's identified by the department number which is shown as--now, if I can read this--shown as Department 358 on the coupon.






JohnM

So, not only did the department number identify the magazine but also the month of the issue in which the (in this case) 36" MC rifle was advertised.

I don't think you can any more specific about which item was ordered by using the item number in combination with the department number!

And that's not all. It also explains how Klein's, in later issues of the magazine, continued with C20-T750 for the 40" rifle, as the department number on the coupon would confirm that a 40" rifle was ordered.

Thanks for clearing that up, John

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Re: The LHO Escape -- Panic and Shock
« Reply #178 on: December 08, 2023, 09:03:21 PM »


Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: The LHO Escape -- Panic and Shock
« Reply #179 on: December 08, 2023, 09:45:29 PM »
OK. It's faint enough in the versions I'm looking at that I can't tell if it's supposed to be "358" or "633" or maybe something else, even with glasses. Even if it is 358, it's set off by itself, and not associated with the C20-T750 order code the way the other identifiers like the control number, item description, and serial number are. As such, it still doesn't give any real credence to the idea that it's some sort of extension to the catalog number. If Klein's really thought that the 36" and 40" rifles were different things, they wouldn't have had the two sizes sharing the same order number. And, if Klein's didn't have any 36" rifles available, "358" is meaningless as some kind of disambiguator. They may have simply fulfilled the order with what they had, figuring that the people buying these things weren't liable to be the type to be picky about the exact length. They just wanted a serviceable rifle cheap, cheap, cheap, and there would be few complaints. Those who did object could then be given the choice of sending it back for a refund or exchange with a 36" model, but they not be many. I've seen this kind of thinking on both ends of the exchange before.

OK. It's faint enough in the versions I'm looking at that I can't tell if it's supposed to be "358" or "633" or maybe something else, even with glasses. Even if it is 358, it's set off by itself, and not associated with the C20-T750 order code the way the other identifiers like the control number, item description, and serial number are.

So, after John corrected you, you still found the need to continue to argue for argument's sake? How typical of you....

Btw, you do understand/know that there is no control number, item description or serial number on the order form, don't you?
They all are on Waldman 7, which got it's basic information from the order form that only contained the order code and the department number on it.

Offline Zeon Mason

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Re: The LHO Escape -- Panic and Shock
« Reply #180 on: December 08, 2023, 11:23:02 PM »
Ok, in that Backyard photo, the rifle Oswald holding is an MC rifle and it looks like it’s probably closer to 40” in length than 36”

And it has a scope.

That’s about all that can be concluded except for maybe some notch detail on the stock that matches with the MC rifle that was mysteriously placed somehow on the 6th floor TSBD so that it would be found at 1:22 pm Nov 22/63.

Now idk what Oswald’s personality was exactly , but if I received a 40” rifle when I ordered by mail a 36” rifle, I’d kinda be angry about that and probably send the rifle back and demand to either get the rifle I wanted or give me my money back.

However, if somebody I knew fairly well (or thought I did) just GAVE me a 40” rifle that THEY had originally ordered as a 36” rifle then I would not care because I’m getting it FREE!

So this is how Oswald could easily have been set up, unbeknownst to him, somebody opened up a fake Oswald PO Box and added the name A..Hidell as a second name. Then they picked up the rifle when it arrived at the mailbox and then they just gave the rifle to the patsy Oswald.

The backyard photo may have been part of the plan or it might have just been coincidence, which none the less worked out well to further set up the patsy..

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Re: The LHO Escape -- Panic and Shock
« Reply #180 on: December 08, 2023, 11:23:02 PM »


Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: The LHO Escape -- Panic and Shock
« Reply #181 on: December 09, 2023, 01:27:49 AM »
Ok, in that Backyard photo, the rifle Oswald holding is an MC rifle and it looks like it’s probably closer to 40” in length than 36”

And it has a scope.

That’s about all that can be concluded except for maybe some notch detail on the stock that matches with the MC rifle that was mysteriously placed somehow on the 6th floor TSBD so that it would be found at 1:22 pm Nov 22/63.

Now idk what Oswald’s personality was exactly , but if I received a 40” rifle when I ordered by mail a 36” rifle, I’d kinda be angry about that and probably send the rifle back and demand to either get the rifle I wanted or give me my money back.

However, if somebody I knew fairly well (or thought I did) just GAVE me a 40” rifle that THEY had originally ordered as a 36” rifle then I would not care because I’m getting it FREE!

So this is how Oswald could easily have been set up, unbeknownst to him, somebody opened up a fake Oswald PO Box and added the name A..Hidell as a second name. Then they picked up the rifle when it arrived at the mailbox and then they just gave the rifle to the patsy Oswald.

The backyard photo may have been part of the plan or it might have just been coincidence, which none the less worked out well to further set up the patsy..

“So this is how Oswald could easily have been set up, unbeknownst to him, somebody opened up a fake Oswald PO Box and added the name A..Hidell as a second name. Then they picked up the rifle when it arrived at the mailbox and then they just gave the rifle to the patsy Oswald.”

The problem with this thought is the fact the pistol ordered from Seaport Traders by Oswald, using the Hidell alias, was delivered to the exact same Post Office Box using the alias A.J. Hidell as the carcano. The same Hidell alias used by Oswald to order the carcano from Kleins, was used to order the pistol from Seaport Traders. 

Tying both these weapons together is the M13 Holster strap used by Oswald as a sling on the carcano. A shoulder strap from the same shoulder holster that was designed for the USAF to hold the Smith and Wesson M13, a 2 1/2” barreled snub nose pistol used by the USAF, a pistol, similar to the Smith and Wesson pistol purchased by Oswald using the Hidell name, this strap was used by Oswald as a sling for the carcano.
=================================

A local L.A. FBI agent was dispatched to question Seaport Traders if they had a record of this revolver, serial number and purchase either through the Oswald or Hidell name. 

They did, and furnished the following documentation: an order coupon placed in a magazine with the Hidell name and a shipping manifest through Railway Express (licensed weapon carrier). It was a C.O.D purchase of $29.95, with $10 cash as a down payment, and the remainder to be paid upon delivery. 

Further link to Oswald was the P.O. Box 2915, which was opened by him in Dallas in October, 1962.[5]

Oswald’s Revolver (steveroeconsulting.wixsite.com)
===================

 

Purchase of the revolver[edit]

On October 9, 1962, Lee Harvey Oswald rented post office box number 2915 in Dallas, Texas.[7] On January 27, 1963, Oswald ordered a snub-nosed Smith & Wesson "Victory" Model .38 Special revolver from Seaport Traders of Los Angeles, using the name A. J. Hidell, and his post office box as address, for $29.95 (equivalent to $286 in 2022) plus postage and handling. It was shipped to him C.O.D. by rail on March 20, and due to policies on shipping of pistols to prevent them from being sent to minors, he was required to pick it up directly at the offices of the Railway Express Agency in Dallas.[8][9]

Magazine advertisement through which Oswald purchased the rifle (left column, third from top). The ad photo for a "6.5 Italian Carbine" actually shows a telescopically modified Carcano TS carbine, but by the time of Oswald's order Klein's was shipping the longer Carcano Model 91/38's.

On March 12, 1963, Oswald placed his second mail-order: this time it was for the mentioned "6.5 Italian Carbine" from Klein's Sporting Goods located in Chicago, as advertised in the February 1963 American Rifleman. Using the alias "Alek Hidell", a variation of the "A.J. Hidell" alias employed to purchase the Smith & Wesson pistol five weeks earlier, Oswald purchased the rifle (model not given in the advertisement), complete with an attached new 4x telescopic sight, for $19.95 (equivalent to $190 in 2022) plus $1.50 shipping. (The rifle alone – without the scope – was priced at $12.78.) Like the handgun, this was also shipped to Oswald at his post office box in Dallas, also on March 20. He picked up the rifle on March 2

 

Online Charles Collins

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Re: The LHO Escape -- Panic and Shock
« Reply #182 on: December 09, 2023, 02:22:26 AM »
“So this is how Oswald could easily have been set up, unbeknownst to him, somebody opened up a fake Oswald PO Box and added the name A..Hidell as a second name. Then they picked up the rifle when it arrived at the mailbox and then they just gave the rifle to the patsy Oswald.”

The problem with this thought is the fact the pistol ordered from Seaport Traders by Oswald, using the Hidell alias, was delivered to the exact same Post Office Box using the alias A.J. Hidell as the carcano. The same Hidell alias used by Oswald to order the carcano from Kleins, was used to order the pistol from Seaport Traders. 

Tying both these weapons together is the M13 Holster strap used by Oswald as a sling on the carcano. A shoulder strap from the same shoulder holster that was designed for the USAF to hold the Smith and Wesson M13, a 2 1/2” barreled snub nose pistol used by the USAF, a pistol, similar to the Smith and Wesson pistol purchased by Oswald using the Hidell name, this strap was used by Oswald as a sling for the carcano.
=================================

A local L.A. FBI agent was dispatched to question Seaport Traders if they had a record of this revolver, serial number and purchase either through the Oswald or Hidell name. 

They did, and furnished the following documentation: an order coupon placed in a magazine with the Hidell name and a shipping manifest through Railway Express (licensed weapon carrier). It was a C.O.D purchase of $29.95, with $10 cash as a down payment, and the remainder to be paid upon delivery. 

Further link to Oswald was the P.O. Box 2915, which was opened by him in Dallas in October, 1962.[5]

Oswald’s Revolver (steveroeconsulting.wixsite.com)
===================

 

Purchase of the revolver[edit]

On October 9, 1962, Lee Harvey Oswald rented post office box number 2915 in Dallas, Texas.[7] On January 27, 1963, Oswald ordered a snub-nosed Smith & Wesson "Victory" Model .38 Special revolver from Seaport Traders of Los Angeles, using the name A. J. Hidell, and his post office box as address, for $29.95 (equivalent to $286 in 2022) plus postage and handling. It was shipped to him C.O.D. by rail on March 20, and due to policies on shipping of pistols to prevent them from being sent to minors, he was required to pick it up directly at the offices of the Railway Express Agency in Dallas.[8][9]

Magazine advertisement through which Oswald purchased the rifle (left column, third from top). The ad photo for a "6.5 Italian Carbine" actually shows a telescopically modified Carcano TS carbine, but by the time of Oswald's order Klein's was shipping the longer Carcano Model 91/38's.

On March 12, 1963, Oswald placed his second mail-order: this time it was for the mentioned "6.5 Italian Carbine" from Klein's Sporting Goods located in Chicago, as advertised in the February 1963 American Rifleman. Using the alias "Alek Hidell", a variation of the "A.J. Hidell" alias employed to purchase the Smith & Wesson pistol five weeks earlier, Oswald purchased the rifle (model not given in the advertisement), complete with an attached new 4x telescopic sight, for $19.95 (equivalent to $190 in 2022) plus $1.50 shipping. (The rifle alone – without the scope – was priced at $12.78.) Like the handgun, this was also shipped to Oswald at his post office box in Dallas, also on March 20. He picked up the rifle on March 2

Also, Robert Oswald wrote in his book “Lee” that it is the same post office box that he used in his written correspondence with his brother Lee during that time period.


Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: The LHO Escape -- Panic and Shock
« Reply #183 on: December 09, 2023, 10:54:27 AM »
Also, Robert Oswald wrote in his book “Lee” that it is the same post office box that he used in his written correspondence with his brother Lee during that time period.

Even better yet. Now there is supposedly some kind of a question as to who ordered and took possession of the rifle, when the mailbox Oswald used to accept personal mail, is also used to buy not one but two mail order weapons from two completely different companies using the same alias, an alias known to be used by Oswald in New Orleans. It completely staggers the imagination that anyone could even begin to float the idea that he was framed or that it was really Oswald who purchased the rifle. 

You must have to leave all self respect and intellect at the door when you decide to believe there was some kind of a conspiracy in this case.

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Re: The LHO Escape -- Panic and Shock
« Reply #183 on: December 09, 2023, 10:54:27 AM »