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Author Topic: Is the Legal standard, "Beyond Reasonable Doubt" OR "Beyond all Doubt"?  (Read 9873 times)

Offline John Mytton

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Of course as we well know, the legal standard is "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt" so why do Conspiracy Theorists often demand that every single piece of evidence is proven beyond all doubt? Richard Smith has jokingly suggested that only a "time machine" where the CT can see the crime itself is often necessary but obviously this is impossible, therefore the Legal system uses the standard of "Beyond Reasonable Doubt".

I have seen many instances of where CT's will individualize and argue against a list of evidence and suggest that since each and every piece of evidence doesn't satisfy them to their mythical standard of "beyond All doubt", so they discard the evidence and don't even consider the implications, and hence the insecure CT can go back to his/her Comfort Zone.

For instance, individually some of this evidence does not specifically lead to Guilt but should the totality of this evidence which leads to only one conclusion be considered as a method of evaluating Guilt Beyond a Reasonable doubt or should each and every piece of evidence be isolated and/or ignored.

Oswald against his usual procedure, goes home mid week.

Oswald tells Frazier that he was picking up curtain rods but tells the Police he only had his lunch.

Oswald tells the Police that he kept his lunch with him in the front seat yet Frazier questions Oswald about the long package on the back seat of his car.

No curtain rods are ever found.

A long empty package with Oswald's prints is recovered in the Sniper's nest.

The shells from Oswald's rifle are found on the floor of the Sniper's nest.

The recovered fragments recovered from the Limo are exclusively matched to Oswald's rifle.

There is still no evidence that Oswald's' rifle was planted.

Oswald uncharacteristically leaves behind his wedding ring.

Oswald leaves the majority of his money with Marina.

Oswald walks uncharacteristically 50 feet ahead of Frazier as the walk to the depository.

Oswald has no alibi at the time of the shots.

Oswald's relatively fresh prints are on the rifle rest and the box used as a seat in the snipers nest.

Oswald who was a political fanatic and supposedly liked Kennedy said he was in the lunchroom and didn't ask anyone what happened.

Outside there was screaming and commotion yet at that precise point in time, Oswald wants a coke?

Oswald flees the scene within a few minutes.

Instead of waiting at the bus stop at Houston and Elm, Oswald in his frenzied flight walks past the bus stop and bashes on a door of a bus stuck in traffic.

Oswald continues his panicked flight as gets on and off a bus stuck in traffic.

Oswald gets out of Whaley's cab way past his Rooming house.

Oswald's leaves his rooming house zipping up a jacket, Oswald is arrested without his zipper jacket?

A jacket which Marina says is Oswald's jacket is recovered from a car park which Oswald is seen entering.

Oswald who looks like he's been running and looks like he's scared to Shoe store Manager Johnny Brewer and appears to be hiding in the shoe store lobby as Police sirens can be heard and as the sirens grew fainter, Oswald looks over his shoulder and leaves.

Oswald enters the Texas Theatre without paying.

Oswald punches the Police Officer in the Texas Theatre.

Oswald for some reason is carrying his revolver in the middle of the day in the Texas Theatre and tries to pull the trigger.

Oswald the devout Marxist holds up his fist to reporters.

Oswald refuses a lie detector test.

Oswald lies about ownership of the Murder Weapon.

Oswald lies about holding the Murder weapon in the Neely Street backyard photos and says that someone put his head on someone else's body.

Oswald leaves out Neely street as a place he rented and alters the date of the previous rental to fit.

Oswald's handwriting is on the Money Order for an amount equalling the price of the rifle plus postage.

Kliens has completed internal paperwork for a rifle(C2766) being sent to Oswald's PO Box.

Oswald receiving a 40 inch Italian Carcano and being photographed with a 40 inch Italian Carcano not long after.

Marina sees the butt of a rifle wrapped in a blanket in the Paine garage which is not there when checked on the afternoon of the assassination.

Frazier in his testimony states numerous times that he never paid attention to a long package that Oswald took to work.

The same rifle that Kliens sent to Oswald's PO box was recovered from the 6th floor of his workplace.

Howard Brennan's description in his affidavit on the day of the assassination is a close match to Oswald.

Lt. Day testifies that he removed Oswald's palm print from the Barrel of Oswald's rifle.

The FBI takes a print from the same section of Oswald's rifle and the area matches the same area that is on Day's palm print card.

A CT told me that because the fibres recovered from the rifle could not be matched with Oswald's shirt fibres to the exclusion of every other shirt with the same material and because he considers we need "100% certainty", he completely rejected this evidence! But is that how the Legal System works?  Even up until this day the FBI routinely does fibre analysis while full knowing that an unrealistic 100% match is impossible, it comes down to evidence that connects a suspect "beyond a reasonable doubt" Bugliosi uses the term "prohibitive probability" as in the chances of someone else with the exact same shirt touches Oswald's rifle as being not impossible but extremely remote.


I'm sure that most of our Rabid CT's are even now, in their own minds, isolating each and every one of these pieces of evidence and saying to themselves that they think that this Mountain of Evidence doesn't lead to Oswald's Guilt but that isn't for them to decide, a Jury of our peers will look at the totality of this evidence without bias, what conclusion do you think that they would reach?

JohnM

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Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Is the Legal standard, "Beyond Reasonable Doubt" OR "Beyond all Doubt"?
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2023, 11:22:19 PM »
So, now you want to discuss what is reasonable or not?

Let me guess what you think the starting point should be; what the LNs say is reasonable and anybody who disagrees with that is unreasonable, right?

OK, how about this; show me conclusive, presuasive evidence for the wild claims you make and I will accept Oswald's guilt. Reasonable enough for you?

I somehow doubt it  :D :D :D :D :D :D

Offline John Mytton

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Re: Is the Legal standard, "Beyond Reasonable Doubt" OR "Beyond all Doubt"?
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2023, 11:32:56 PM »
So, now you want to discuss what is reasonable or not?

Let me guess what you think the starting point should be; what the LNs say is reasonable and anybody who disagrees with that is unreasonable, right?

OK, how about this; show me conclusive, presuasive evidence for the wild claims you make and I will accept Oswald's guilt. Reasonable enough for you?

I somehow doubt it  :D :D :D :D :D :D

Quote
I will accept Oswald's guilt.



Talk about Delusions of Grandeur!

It will never be up to you, because you are a proven Kook!

It's as I spelled out that even a child could understand, it's up to our unbiased peers to figure out if this Mountain of Evidence points to Oswald's guilt!

JohnM

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Is the Legal standard, "Beyond Reasonable Doubt" OR "Beyond all Doubt"?
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2023, 11:32:56 PM »


Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Is the Legal standard, "Beyond Reasonable Doubt" OR "Beyond all Doubt"?
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2023, 11:50:35 PM »


Talk about Delusions of Grandeur!

It will never be up to you, because you are a proven Kook!

It's as I spelled out that even a child could understand, it's up to our unbiased peers to figure out if this Mountain of Evidence points to Oswald's guilt!

JohnM

Exactly the response I expected for this "reasonable" propagandist. Even your pathetic gif is named "laugh-at-Weidmann! Says it all, really....

It will never be up to you, because you are a proven Kook!

Is this proven beyond a reasonable doubt or just your pathetic opinion?   :D :D :D :D :D :D

But thank you for making clear that you have no interest in convincing the sceptical. You only want to preach to the already converted..... What's the matter, John? Could it be you understand that your arguments are too weak to convince anybody who isn't instantly convinced by your superficial propaganda?

It's as I spelled out that even a child could understand, it's up to our unbiased peers to figure out if this Mountain of Evidence points to Oswald's guilt!

As you spelled out?... Talk about delusions of grandeur. Who died and made you in charge?
« Last Edit: December 09, 2023, 01:16:57 AM by Martin Weidmann »

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Is the Legal standard, "Beyond Reasonable Doubt" OR "Beyond all Doubt"?
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2023, 11:57:20 PM »
Let's see if John can answer this;

If you tell 10 lies or half truths do they become true, to a standard of reasonable doubt, when combined?

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Re: Is the Legal standard, "Beyond Reasonable Doubt" OR "Beyond all Doubt"?
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2023, 11:57:20 PM »


Online Richard Smith

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Re: Is the Legal standard, "Beyond Reasonable Doubt" OR "Beyond all Doubt"?
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2023, 12:36:08 AM »
Let's cut to the chase.  Show us the evidence, here is the evidence, the evidence is fake.  The end. We now have time for a musical interlude. 





Online Charles Collins

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Re: Is the Legal standard, "Beyond Reasonable Doubt" OR "Beyond all Doubt"?
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2023, 12:53:38 AM »
It is also your duty to base your verdict solely upon the evidence, without prejudice or sympathy. That was the promise you made and the oath you took before being accepted by the parties as jurors, and they have the right to expect nothing less.

A “reasonable doubt” is a doubt based upon reason and common sense after careful and impartial consideration of all the evidence in the case. Proof beyond a reasonable doubt, therefore, is proof of such a convincing character that you would be willing to rely and act upon it without hesitation in making the most important decisions of your own affairs.


https://www.lb5.uscourts.gov/juryinstructions/fifth/crim2015.pdf


Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Is the Legal standard, "Beyond Reasonable Doubt" OR "Beyond all Doubt"?
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2023, 01:00:06 AM »
It is also your duty to base your verdict solely upon the evidence, without prejudice or sympathy. That was the promise you made and the oath you took before being accepted by the parties as jurors, and they have the right to expect nothing less.

A “reasonable doubt” is a doubt based upon reason and common sense after careful and impartial consideration of all the evidence in the case. Proof beyond a reasonable doubt, therefore, is proof of such a convincing character that you would be willing to rely and act upon it without hesitation in making the most important decisions of your own affairs.


https://www.lb5.uscourts.gov/juryinstructions/fifth/crim2015.pdf

A “reasonable doubt” is a doubt based upon reason and common sense after careful and impartial consideration of all the evidence in the case.

This is absolutely true, but the careful and impartial consideration has to be of all the evidence after it has been scrutinized by the prosecution and defense.

In this case that didn't happen. We were told a fairytale, with evidence being locked away for years and no possibility of examination by the defense.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Is the Legal standard, "Beyond Reasonable Doubt" OR "Beyond all Doubt"?
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2023, 01:00:06 AM »