Vicki Adams: The Lost Interview

[Martin Weidmann]

So, u are speculating that an Officer or Officers took sentry near the railtracks between the TSBD & the grassy knoll carpark well before 300 sec after the shooting.
I said about 300 sec after.
Is my speculation better than yours?

No, I'm not speculating at all. I've stated the fact that Adams told the WC that a police officer was there who told her to go back to the building. As Styles re-entered the building before it was locked down at around 12:36 (according to Sergeant Harkness) the encounter with the officer most have happened between the time of the shots (12:30) and Styles' re-entry (12:36). I don't need to speculate if an officer was there before or after 300 seconds after the shooting. The witnesses themselves put the officer there between 12:30 and 12:36 and the latter time needs of course to be reduced by the time Adams and Styles needed to walk along side the annex and passed the front of the building.

I don't see why this is so difficult for you to understand. A motorcycle cop jumped off his bike and ran up the grassy knoll to the railway yard within a minute of the shooting. Do you really think he was the only one who got there so fast?

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

Excerpt from “The Girl On The Stairs” by Barry Ernst (page 34) and Warren Report (page 154):

If Miss Adams accurately recalled meeting Shelley and Lovelady when she reached the bottom of the stairs, then her estimate of the time when she descended from the fourth floor is incorrect, and she actually came down the stairs several minutes after Oswald and after Truly and Baker as well.



Vicky Adams says Belin asked her if she could be mistaken about the timing. And she says her answer to Belin’s question was “Yes sir, there is a strong possibility that I could be wrong.”

I believe that Vicky Adams was miffed when she found out that the WC concluded that she actually was wrong without performing a stopwatch trial of her activity. However, it isn’t simply a matter of doing a stopwatch trial unless it can be established approximately when she actually left the window. A look at the Bell film that I linked on an earlier post in this thread (via another thread) shows us that even after a minute and fifteen seconds there still wasn’t people running across Elm Street and up the grassy knoll towards the railroad yards. And since both Adams’ and Styles’ statements to the FBI indicate they saw people running toward the railroad yards, it follows that they must have still been at the fourth floor window at least until after the 1-minute and 15-seconds after the shots. Otherwise there was no opportunity for them to see the people running during their trek downstairs.

I think that Adams might have been wrong that they saw people running west before Adams left the window.
On the other hand we know that the African American gentleman (& his wife & son)(on the grass on the south side of Elm)(name not known) that jfk waved to (just before jfk was shot at Z218) ran west immediately.
The gentleman cannot be seen in Bell. He ran well before Bell.

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

No, I'm not speculating at all. I've stated the fact that Adams told the WC that a police officer was there who told her to go back to the building. As Styles re-entered the building before it was locked down at around 12:36 (according to Sergeant Harkness) the encounter with the officer most have happened between the time of the shots (12:30) and Styles' re-entry (12:36). I don't need to speculate if an officer was there before or after 300 seconds after the shooting. The witnesses themselves put the officer there between 12:30 and 12:36 and the latter time needs of course to be reduced by the time Adams and Styles needed to walk along side the annex and passed the front of the building.

I don't see why this is so difficult for you to understand. A motorcycle cop jumped off his bike and ran up the grassy knoll to the railway yard within a minute of the shooting. Do you really think he was the only one who got there so fast?

I seem to recall that a number of Officers took sentry around the west & north of the TSBD. Some were commanded to. And some i think did so themselves.
I doubt that any Officer from the motorcade confronted Adams.
Later or much later the grassy knoll carpark is full of gawkers & Officers etc.
But i think that the TSBD was encircled by Officers at an early time. No one was allowed out.
Some (eg Adams) who had come out were sent back in (but that sentry remained at his post)(he could not accompany Adams).
Some who were already out were allowed back in.
I think that early on the TSBD was not on Decker's Curry's radar. I think the triple underpass was on their radar.
Anyhow it would/will be difficult i think to put a timeline on when Officers started to encircle the TSBD.
I still say that it took a long time. I reckon 300 sec. Above i said at an early time, ie 300 sec is i reckon early, very early.
But Adams suggests much less than 300 sec (ie about say 200 sec). But 200 sec is way way too early (alltho it accords with what u said).
Just speculating.
It would be nice to find all of the references re Officers' actions re taking sentry.

The TSBD main building is 100ft by 100ft. The distance from the southwest cnr of the TSBD main building to the north end of the paling fence at the grassy knoll carpark is 200ft
If Adams followed the tracks at the back of the TSBD all the way from the dock to the paling fence then that would be 330ft (ie along that diagonal).
But the extension of little Elm St crosses that track 40ft short of the paling fence (290ft). This cross-point is probly about where Adams got to.
And then from the cross-point back to the front door of the TSBD is 260ft.
290ft plus 260ft is 550ft of walking for Adams (after exiting the dock). At 6ft/sec (4mph) that would take 48sec plus 43sec = 91sec.

[Martin Weidmann]

Excerpt from “The Girl On The Stairs” by Barry Ernst (page 34) and Warren Report (page 154):

If Miss Adams accurately recalled meeting Shelley and Lovelady when she reached the bottom of the stairs, then her estimate of the time when she descended from the fourth floor is incorrect, and she actually came down the stairs several minutes after Oswald and after Truly and Baker as well.



Vicky Adams says Belin asked her if she could be mistaken about the timing. And she says her answer to Belin’s question was “Yes sir, there is a strong possibility that I could be wrong.”

I believe that Vicky Adams was miffed when she found out that the WC concluded that she actually was wrong without performing a stopwatch trial of her activity. However, it isn’t simply a matter of doing a stopwatch trial unless it can be established approximately when she actually left the window. A look at the Bell film that I linked on an earlier post in this thread (via another thread) shows us that even after a minute and fifteen seconds there still wasn’t people running across Elm Street and up the grassy knoll towards the railroad yards. And since both Adams’ and Styles’ statements to the FBI indicate they saw people running toward the railroad yards, it follows that they must have still been at the fourth floor window at least until after the 1-minute and 15-seconds after the shots. Otherwise there was no opportunity for them to see the people running during their trek downstairs.

You can be as stubborn as you want and believe whatever you want, but when you make a time line based up all the available factual information the only thing that doesn't fit is that Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor. What does fit is that she actually saw them in the same area next to the TSBD annex where a police man stopped them and told them to go back into the building. The testimony of Shelley and Lovelady puts both men at exactly that position at the right time. They said they were at the front of the building when they heard the shots and then ran along the front side of the building to the parking lot near the railway tracks.

Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I couldn't say because she came up to us and we was talking to her, wasn't looking that direction at that time, but when we came off the steps--see, that entrance, you have a blind side when you go down the steps.
Mr. BALL - Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you run or walk?
Mr. LOVELADY - Medium trotting or fast walk.
Mr. BALL - A fast walk?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - How did you happen to turn around and see Truly and the policeman go into the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Somebody hollered and I looked.
Mr. BALL - You turned around and looked?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - After you ran to the railroad tracks you came back and went in the back door of the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.

Mr. SHELLEY - We ran out on the island while some of the people that were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned around and we saw an officer and Truly.
Mr. BALL - And Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you see them go into the building?
MMr. SHELLEY - No; we didn't watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin' to go in.
Mr. BALL - Were they moving at the time, walking or running?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, they were moving, yes.
Mr. BALL - Were they running?
Mr. SHELLEY - That, I couldn't swear to; there were so many people around.
Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do?
Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.
Mr. BALL - At the west end?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room.

This combined testimony shows that Shelley and Lovelady both saw Truly and Baker just prior to going into the building at the front entrance when they were already walking/running towards the parking lot at the West side of the building.

If you have Adams and Styles leaving the window directly after the shots to go down the stairs, and if you have Shelley and Lovelady starting to walk/run to the railroad track next to the building just when Truly and Baker entered the building, they could very well have ended up at the West side of the building at roughly the same time. So, It isn't so much whether Adams saw both men, which she probably did, but rather the location where she saw them.

What blows your theory out of the water is the fact that we know that if Adams and Styles had really waited 75 seconds after the shots they would have encountered Truly and Baker on the stairs, which they didn't. We also know that Dorothy Garner told Martha Stroud that the girls had gone down the stairs before Truly and a police man come up. We know that it took Baker roughly 90 seconds to briefly encounter Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom. After that short encounter they continued to go up the stairs. So, if Adams and Styles started to go down the stairs at roughly 85 to 90 seconds after the shots and Baker and Truly left the 2nd floor at roughly 90 to 95 seconds after the shots, there is no way that they wouldn't have bumped into eachother on the stairs.

Adams said it took them about a minute to go down the stairs and out the building onto the loading dock. We also know that Styles re-entered the building before it was locked down (at 12:36), so if they left the window on the 4th floor at 12:31:15 as you claim and they needed a minute to get to the loading dock, they only would have had only 4 minutes and 45 seconds to run from the loading dock (on high heels) along three sides of the building (meeting the officer somewhere in between) to get to the front entrance. There is IMO no way that could have happened.

[Martin Weidmann]

I seem to recall that a number of Officers took sentry around the west & north of the TSBD. Some were commanded to. And some i think did so themselves.
I doubt that any Officer from the motorcade confronted Adams.
Later or much later the grassy knoll carpark is full of gawkers & Officers etc.
But i think that the TSBD was encircled by Officers at an early time. No one was allowed out.
Some (eg Adams) who had come out were sent back in (but that sentry remained at his post)(he could not accompany Adams).
Some who were already out were allowed back in.
I think that early on the TSBD was not on Decker's Curry's radar. I think the triple underpass was on their radar.
Anyhow it would/will be difficult i think to put a timeline on when Officers started to encircle the TSBD.
I still say that it took a long time. I reckon 300 sec. Above i said at an early time, ie 300 sec is i reckon early, very early.
But Adams suggests much less than 300 sec (ie about say 200 sec). But 200 sec is way way too early (alltho it accords with what u said).
Just speculating.
It would be nice to find all of the references re Officers' actions re taking up sentry.

When officers took up positions after being ordered to do so isn't really all that significant. We know from Sergeant Harkness that the order to lock down the building didn't come until 12:36 and that the back was locked down first.
But there were officers in or near the back of the building before that. Adams said in the interview that when she arrived at the loading dock (around one minute after the shots) she saw a uniformed police man standing near Houston street talking to a person in plain clothes. So, if there was an officer at the East side of the building, there could just as easily have been one at the West side, near the railroad tracks.

Also, please take note of what Shelley said in his testimony (as quoted in the previous post)!

Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do?
Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

When officers took up positions after being ordered to do so isn't really all that significant. We know from Sergeant Harkness that the order to lock down the building didn't come until 12:36 and that the back was locked down first.
But there were officers in or near the back of the building before that. Adams said in the interview that when she arrived at the loading dock (around one minute after the shots) she saw a uniformed police man standing near Houston street talking to a person in plain clothes. So, if there was an officer at the East side of the building, there could just as easily have been one at the West side, near the railroad tracks.

Also, please take note of what Shelley said in his testimony (as quoted in the previous post)!

Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do?
Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.

Yes. U would think that the unknown sentry Officer & S&L & A&S would have all met at about the rail/deadend crossing. At least at the end of the "a little while".
Except that the sentry had to have taken imo at least 300sec.
Unless he had taken up his sentry of his own volition (looking more & more likely).
And, that sentry post was over near the TSBD, ie A&S never got close to the rail/deadend crossing point, ie A&S never met S&L at that time.
But it looks like S&L snuck over & into the side entry ramp to the TSBD without meeting the sentry Officer, or at least he woznt worried about them entering, he was looking for exiters.
Obviously by that time there must have been a sentry at the iron gates into that dock (ie the iron gates off the Elm St deadend). But S&L must have snuck across to the side ramp without worrying that sentry also (no need to try their luck with him when they could sneek into the TSBD via the ramp entry).
On the other hand praps S&L did not have any clue that the TSBD might be in lockdown, ie they entered via the side ramp without a second thort.

[John Mytton]

At the end of the day, if Vickie Adams and Gloria Styles left immediately, it simply means that Oswald was following behind them. And the Stroud document doesn't say that Garner(who btw was recalling these events many months later) was constantly monitoring the rear stairs, Garner was simply aware that the girls left to go downstairs and sometime after Oswald was long gone she says she saw Truly and Baker. End of Story! Case Closed!



JohnM

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

At the end of the day, if Vickie Adams and Gloria Styles left immediately, it simply means that Oswald was following behind them. And the Stroud document doesn't say that Garner(who btw was recalling these events many months later) was constantly monitoring the rear stairs, Garner was simply aware that the girls left to go downstairs and sometime after Oswald was long gone she says she saw Truly and Baker. End of Story! Case Closed!



JohnM

If Garner was at the closest western window to the stairs then she would have been within spitting distance of B&T when they entered the 4th floor.
Yet B&T never mentioned ever seeing Garner. Obviously B&T were looking for a guy.
A&S were on the first floor at the same time as B&T, but B&T (heading for the lifts) never mentioned ever seeing A&S (heading for the dock door). Ditto.