Vicki Adams: The Lost Interview

[Martin Weidmann]

Forty pages of contrarian gibberish trying to interpret words and recollections after the fact down to seconds.  Words like "immediate" can mean different things to different people.  Particularly when dealing in increments of time down to seconds. No one needs to sort this out to the subjective satisfaction of loons or invent a time machine to demonstrate that Oswald could have made his way from the 6th floor to the 2nd floor unnoticed.  Logic dictates that if the evidence proves Oswald was on the 6th floor at 12:30 when the shots were fired AND that he is on the 2nd floor a couple of minutes later, that means beyond all doubt that he could move between those points without being seen by Adams.  Once a thing has happened, the odds against it happening are no longer relevant no matter how improbable.  It would be like trying to prove that no one can win the lottery because the odds are so long against it while standing in the presence of the person holding the winning ticket.  We know it could happen because it did.  The evidence places Oswald on the 6th floor (his rifle, prints and absence of any alibi) at the moment the shots were fired (i.e. 12:30) and Truly and Baker place him on the 2nd floor a couple of minutes later.  We also know that the stairs are the only way he could have gotten between those two points in that timeframe and that no one saw him do so.  That is the end of the story. 

There is no need to interpret the testimony of anyone on this point.   The circumstances prove it beyond any doubt.  Endless subjective nitpicking of testimony and interpretations of words used by witnesses to support some desired outcome is working backward to the facts.  Here is an example.  If I can prove that Roger Collins was in Paris this morning, and then in NYC this afternoon, the proof of those two facts means beyond any doubt that he took an airplane to get there.  I don't have to separately prove that he did so.   Even if no passenger on a transatlantic flight could remember him being on a plane that day, that does not create doubt.  We know it happened because it is the only way to explain his presence at those two locations within the known timeframe.  Not only is it possible that he took a plane, but the facts and circumstances prove that he HAD to have done so.

Logic dictates that if the evidence proves Oswald was on the 6th floor at 12:30 when the shots were fired AND that he is on the 2nd floor a couple of minutes later, that means beyond all doubt that he could move between those points without being seen by Adams.

Too bad that there is not a shred of credible evidence that proves Oswald was on the 6th floor when the shots were fired. I have asked you to provide such evidence for months and you were never able to provide it. You couldn't even explain how the presence of a rifle that allegedly belonged to Oswald could actually prove that he was also there in person.

The evidence places Oswald on the 6th floor (his rifle, prints and absence of any alibi) at the moment the shots were fired (i.e. 12:30)

Utter BS.... even if the rifle belonged to Oswald (which is a big "if"), that still does not begin to prove that Oswald himself was on the 6th floor at 12:30. Neither do his prints on some boxes as we know for a fact that Oswald was working on the 6th floor in the hours prior to the assassination and thus was supposed to be there and you can only assume that he didn't have an alibi, because he never had a real opportunity to present one, regardless of what his interrogators said in their sloppy reports.

The bottom line is that no matter how often you continue to repeat the same old BS, it will never be anything else but inconclusive speculation based on wishful thinking

[Dan O'meara]

Forty pages of contrarian gibberish trying to interpret words and recollections after the fact down to seconds.  Words like "immediate" can mean different things to different people.  Particularly when dealing in increments of time down to seconds. No one needs to sort this out to the subjective satisfaction of loons or invent a time machine to demonstrate that Oswald could have made his way from the 6th floor to the 2nd floor unnoticed.  Logic dictates that if the evidence proves Oswald was on the 6th floor at 12:30 when the shots were fired AND that he is on the 2nd floor a couple of minutes later, that means beyond all doubt that he could move between those points without being seen by Adams.  Once a thing has happened, the odds against it happening are no longer relevant no matter how improbable.  It would be like trying to prove that no one can win the lottery because the odds are so long against it while standing in the presence of the person holding the winning ticket.  We know it could happen because it did.  The evidence places Oswald on the 6th floor (his rifle, prints and absence of any alibi) at the moment the shots were fired (i.e. 12:30) and Truly and Baker place him on the 2nd floor a couple of minutes later.  We also know that the stairs are the only way he could have gotten between those two points in that timeframe and that no one saw him do so.  That is the end of the story. 

There is no need to interpret the testimony of anyone on this point.   The circumstances prove it beyond any doubt.  Endless subjective nitpicking of testimony and interpretations of words used by witnesses to support some desired outcome is working backward to the facts.  Here is an example.  If I can prove that Roger Collins was in Paris this morning, and then in NYC this afternoon, the proof of those two facts means beyond any doubt that he took an airplane to get there.  I don't have to separately prove that he did so.   Even if no passenger on a transatlantic flight could remember him being on a plane that day, that does not create doubt.  We know it happened because it is the only way to explain his presence at those two locations within the known timeframe.  Not only is it possible that he took a plane, but the facts and circumstances prove that he HAD to have done so.

Words like "immediate" can mean different things to different people.  Particularly when dealing in increments of time down to seconds.


In the case of Vicki Adams, "immediate" means within ten seconds.
I can't wait to hear your piss-weak explanation for why we can't see any of the four women at the open window on the fourth floor.
The Dillard picture is proof Adams was already on her way downstairs.
Adams decides to set off before the limo has reached the underpass (something confirmed by the Dillard picture). According to your star witness, Brennan, the shooter is still stood in the SN at this time:

"Even as I hit the ground, my first instinct was to look back up to that man on the sixth floor. “Was he going to fire again?” I wondered. By now the motorcade was beginning to speed up and in only a couple of seconds the President’s car had disappeared under the triple underpass. To my amazement the man still stood there in the window! He didn’t appear to be rushed. There was no particular emotion visible on his face except for a slight smirk. It was a look of satisfaction, as if he had accomplished what he had set out to do. He seemed pleased that no one had realized where the shots were coming from. Then he did something that puzzled me. Very slowly and deliberately he set the rifle on its butt and just stayed there for a moment to savor what he had done, like a hunter who has “bagged his buck.” Then, with no sense of haste, he simply moved slowly away from the window until he disappeared from my line of vision."


So there's no need to worry about Adams not hearing Oswald on the stairs!! 

Adams hits the first floor and is out of the back door before Truly and Baker arrive at the elevators (confirmed by the Stroud document).
But she passes close by Lovelady and Shelley, who have raced to the back of the TSBD building for some unspecified reason. She is a witness to their presence at that location seconds after the shooting.
Lovelady and Shelley must be the two white men Baker reports seeing as he approaches the elevators.

The evidence places Oswald on the 6th floor (his rifle, prints and absence of any alibi) at the moment the shots were fired (i.e. 12:30)

This is a lie.
A deliberate falsehood.
You should be ashamed of yourself for constantly peddling this lie.
It shows a lack of character.

[Dan O'meara]

As already stated, both men offer up exactly the same lie in their WC testimonies

Interesting and certainly food for thought. Having said that, I'm struggling to understand what possible reason Shelley and Lovelady would have to lie.

Also, if they did lie, why would Lovelady be so hesitant to identify Vickie Adams as the woman he saw?

They are lying to cover up their presence by the elevators in the immediate aftermath of the shooting.
In their affidavits both men give the impression they went straight back inside the building very shortly after the shooting. In all their subsequent statements they are at pains to emphasise how long it was before they went back inside, culminating in Lovelady's HSCA whopper, that it was 15 to 20 minutes before he went back inside.
Vicki Adams saw them and they saw her. The reason both men refuse to mention Vicki is because it places them by the elevators on the first floor seconds after the shooting. If they acknowledge they saw Vicki and that she spoke to them, they place themselves at that location seconds after the shooting.
Lovelady suddenly blurting out he couldn't swear it was Vicki he saw is comedic.

The reason Adams and Styles are not in the Dillard pic is because they are already on their way.
The reason Adams and Styles never see Truly and Baker (and vice versa) is because their paths never cross - the girls are already out the back door before Truly and Baker get to the elevators (where Baker sees two white men hanging around). This is the only way the Stroud document can make sense.

Vicki Adams saw Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor seconds after the shooting. She knew who they were and spoke to them.
This means, apart from their same day affidavits, Lovelady and Shelley continually lie about where they were in the aftermath of the shooting.

Why would they do this?

[Jack Nessan]

Words like "immediate" can mean different things to different people.  Particularly when dealing in increments of time down to seconds.


In the case of Vicki Adams, "immediate" means within ten seconds.
I can't wait to hear your piss-weak explanation for why we can't see any of the four women at the open window on the fourth floor.
The Dillard picture is proof Adams was already on her way downstairs.
Adams decides to set off before the limo has reached the underpass (something confirmed by the Dillard picture). According to your star witness, Brennan, the shooter is still stood in the SN at this time:

"Even as I hit the ground, my first instinct was to look back up to that man on the sixth floor. “Was he going to fire again?” I wondered. By now the motorcade was beginning to speed up and in only a couple of seconds the President’s car had disappeared under the triple underpass. To my amazement the man still stood there in the window! He didn’t appear to be rushed. There was no particular emotion visible on his face except for a slight smirk. It was a look of satisfaction, as if he had accomplished what he had set out to do. He seemed pleased that no one had realized where the shots were coming from. Then he did something that puzzled me. Very slowly and deliberately he set the rifle on its butt and just stayed there for a moment to savor what he had done, like a hunter who has “bagged his buck.” Then, with no sense of haste, he simply moved slowly away from the window until he disappeared from my line of vision."


So there's no need to worry about Adams not hearing Oswald on the stairs!! 

Adams hits the first floor and is out of the back door before Truly and Baker arrive at the elevators (confirmed by the Stroud document).
But she passes close by Lovelady and Shelley, who have raced to the back of the TSBD building for some unspecified reason. She is a witness to their presence at that location seconds after the shooting.
Lovelady and Shelley must be the two white men Baker reports seeing as he approaches the elevators.

The evidence places Oswald on the 6th floor (his rifle, prints and absence of any alibi) at the moment the shots were fired (i.e. 12:30)

This is a lie.
A deliberate falsehood.
You should be ashamed of yourself for constantly peddling this lie.
It shows a lack of character.

I can't wait to hear your piss-weak explanation for why we can't see any of the four women at the open window on the fourth floor.

To my amazement the man still stood there in the window! [/u]He didn’t appear to be rushed. There was no particular emotion visible on his face except for a slight smirk. It was a look of satisfaction, as if he had accomplished what he had set out to do. He seemed pleased that no one had realized where the shots were coming from. Then he did something that puzzled me. Very slowly and deliberately he set the rifle on its butt and just stayed there for a moment to savor what he had done, like a hunter who has “bagged his buck.” Then, with no sense of haste, he simply moved slowly away from the window until he disappeared from my line of vision."

If any of this were true where is Oswald in the picture?

[Dan O'meara]

I can't wait to hear your piss-weak explanation for why we can't see any of the four women at the open window on the fourth floor.

To my amazement the man still stood there in the window! [/u]He didn’t appear to be rushed. There was no particular emotion visible on his face except for a slight smirk. It was a look of satisfaction, as if he had accomplished what he had set out to do. He seemed pleased that no one had realized where the shots were coming from. Then he did something that puzzled me. Very slowly and deliberately he set the rifle on its butt and just stayed there for a moment to savor what he had done, like a hunter who has “bagged his buck.” Then, with no sense of haste, he simply moved slowly away from the window until he disappeared from my line of vision."

If any of this were true where is Oswald in the picture?

The Dillard pic is definitely true.
It definitely shows that Adams, Styles and Garner have left the window they were looking out of.
This shows they had left that location within ten seconds of the shooting, give or take a couple of seconds.
This ties in with Adams reportedly saying she decided to find out what was going on before the limo had even reached the underpass.
It now becomes clear why she never saw Baker or Truly on the stairs - she was well ahead of them.


As for Oswald...you tell me.
And while you're at it, you can tell me why Lovelady and Shelley lied about being by the elevators on the first floor seconds after the shooting.

[Jack Nessan]

The Dillard pic is definitely true.
It definitely shows that Adams, Styles and Garner have left the window they were looking out of.
This shows they had left that location within ten seconds of the shooting, give or take a couple of seconds.
This ties in with Adams reportedly saying she decided to find out what was going on before the limo had even reached the underpass.
It now becomes clear why she never saw Baker or Truly on the stairs - she was well ahead of them.


As for Oswald...you tell me.
And while you're at it, you can tell me why Lovelady and Shelley lied about being by the elevators on the first floor seconds after the shooting.

Oswald is not visible, Harold Norman is not visible, if the girls were standing back a little in the room too, we probably would not see them either. One person standing close to the window takes up the whole window as can be seen next to the open window. Elsie Dorman was sitting on the floor there at the window filming the motorcade with her husband's camera. She is not seen either. The window starts 14 inches off of the floor and only opens up to a max of 3 to 4 feet, if it is like the fifth and sixth floors windows.

Shelley stated they ran across the street where he spoke to Calvary. Lovelady stated they headed towards the limo and it sped off. He states they stayed there for approximately 5 minutes before returning to the TSBD.

[Dan O'meara]

Oswald is not visible, Harold Norman is not visible, if the girls were standing back a little in the room too, we probably would not see them either. One person standing close to the window takes up the whole window as can be seen next to the open window. Elsie Dorman was sitting on the floor there at the window filming the motorcade with her husband's camera. She is not seen either. The window starts 14 inches off of the floor and only opens up to a max of 3 to 4 feet, if it is like the fifth and sixth floors windows.

Shelley stated they ran across the street where he spoke to Calvary. Lovelady stated they headed towards the limo and it sped off. He states they stayed there for approximately 5 minutes before returning to the TSBD.

A completely meaningless post.
In the pic below Adams, Styles, Garner and Dorman are supposed to be stood at the open set of windows. They are nowhere to be seen. Look to the set of windows to the left and there is a woman stood looking out of the window. Look at how much of her we can see - from her knees upwards. Even if Adams and co. were stood "back a little in the room" we would still see them:



This is exactly the kind of piss-weak response i was expecting.
Ignore all the testimony, ignore the photographic evidence and make up a piss-poor scenario that isn't attested to anywhere.
Good work Jack.
Adams states in numerous and various different ways that immediately after the shooting she raced down the stairs with Sandra Styles. Dorothy Garner has stated she followed them out of the office in time to hear them clattering down the stairs. After a couple of minutes she saw Truly and an officer (obviously Baker) coming up the same stairs.
Adams and Styles never see Truly and Baker. Truly and Baker never see Adams and Styles. The Dillard pic explains why - Adams and Styles were gone within ten seconds of the shooting and were running flat out. They hit the first floor and were out the back door before Truly and Baker were on the scene.
At no point is there any hint or mention of the women going to the back of the office for a chat. It's just a really weak attempt to change what the evidence is telling us.
Adams wants to know what's going on. She believes the President has been shot at and may have been hit. Before the limo reaches the underpass she decides to race outside to find out what's going on. She talks to everyone she meets if they know about the President being shot. She listens to the radio transmissions on the motorcycle to try and get some information about it.
To put forward the suggestion that she waited out of sight of the only windows she could see out of, towards the back of the office, is genuinely poor.

The reason Adams and Styles are not seen in the Dillard pic is because they are already racing out of the office - just like they said they did. Confirmed by Garner. Confirmed by the Stroud document.

Shelley stated they ran across the street where he spoke to Calvary. Lovelady stated they headed towards the limo and it sped off. He states they stayed there for approximately 5 minutes before returning to the TSBD.

I see I'm going to have to spoon feed you the point I've been labouring to make in my last few posts -

Shelley and Lovelady lied about their movements after the shooting!

That is the importance of what Adams witnesses.
Within a matter of seconds she is on the first floor. Lovelady and Shelley are already there!
In their affidavits taken a couple of hours after the assassination neither man mentions staying outside of the building for any amount of time. Neither mention going down the Elm Street extension. Neither mention hanging around the railroad yard watching what was going on. Neither mention re-entering the building through the west door. Both men give the distinct impression that they went back inside the building, through the front door, almost immediately after the shooting.
Adams confirms that this is exactly what they did.
In all their subsequent statements both Shelley and Lovelady lied about staying outside after the assassination.
They lied to cover up the fact that they had rushed towards the back of the TSBD building within seconds of the shooting.

Why did they do that?

Note - it's strange how everyone really relies on the testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady for various timings. I had done it myself until I listened to the recording of the interview posted in this thread. It hadn't dawned on me to simply accept what Adams was saying - that she immediately raced downstairs, she hit the first floor within one minute of the shooting and Lovelady and Shelley were already there.

If Lovelady and, in particular, Shelley, were lying through their teeth about their movements after the assassination, what else did they lie about?

[Michael Capasse]

If Lovelady and, in particular, Shelley, were lying through their teeth about their movements after the assassination, what else did they lie about?

Running guns for the Cuban fight:
https://jfk.boards.net/post/7272/thread