Vicki Adams: The Lost Interview

[Dan O'meara]

“Seconds after this image is taken Baker forces his way past people on the steps and enters the front lobby. Truly turns and follows Baker up the steps and into the lobby. Does this image show the moment Gloria tells Lovelady and others about the shooting? Does it show Shelley returning to the steps?” 

Another picture. Another moment of disbelief. Do you see it? The fact that it does not fit your story. 

If Baker then Truly pass Shelley and Lovelady on the steps, how do Shelley and Lovelady encounter the descending Adams and Styles by the first floor elevator before the girls can meet Baker and Truly ascending up the stairs? Shelley and Lovelady are now behind Truly and Baker in the mad dash.

Shelley and Lovelady must follow Baker into the front lobby.

Why? Because without this happening, it is beyond ridiculous that the people who you are surmising in the first place to be Shelley and Lovelady, would even do this.

 
The things you are posting are getting more bizarre.
Out of all the information, evidence and arguments I've put forward, the only thing you can come up with is that you find it impossible to understand how Shelley and Lovelady make their way past Baker in the lobby??
You accept everything else I've posted but this is somehow too much for you??

Adams is a witness to Shelley and Lovelady as she moves across the first floor.
This is something you also believe!
Don't you realise that??
It's just that you think it happened a few minutes later.
But now you're questioning whether Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady at all.
You will do anything or say anything to try and score a point but you constantly end up shooting yourself in the foot.

Do you now disagree that Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor?

[Martin Weidmann]

Such hostility and rudeness.

If there's anything inaccurate about what I 've posted please point it out and I will correct it.
Not for one second did it occur to me that your suggestion to contact the DPD was in anyway to be taken seriously.
I can't believe how badly I've underestimated how moronic you can be.
The "Lost Interview" is new evidence to me and all I'm doing is examining the ramifications of Vicki Adams witnessing Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor seconds after the assassination.
That is all I'm doing.
For some bizarre reason you felt compelled to attack me for simply examining this aspect of the case, accusing me of posting gibberish and calling me a "loon".
It's none of your f%cking business what I choose to study regarding this case.
If you don't like the arguments I put forward then show a bit of backbone and put a counter argument forward, instead of your moronic rants and lies.
Now back under your rock.

 

[Martin Weidmann]

The things you are posting are getting more bizarre.
Out of all the information, evidence and arguments I've put forward, the only thing you can come up with is that you find it impossible to understand how Shelley and Lovelady make their way past Baker in the lobby??
You accept everything else I've posted but this is somehow too much for you??

Adams is a witness to Shelley and Lovelady as she moves across the first floor.
This is something you also believe!
Don't you realise that??
It's just that you think it happened a few minutes later.
But now you're questioning whether Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady at all.
You will do anything or say anything to try and score a point but you constantly end up shooting yourself in the foot.

Do you now disagree that Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor?

Out of all the information, evidence and arguments I've put forward, the only thing you can come up with is that you find it impossible to understand how Shelley and Lovelady make their way past Baker in the lobby??

Perhaps they never did. I was reading Shelley's testimony and this stood out;

According to Shelley, he and Lovelady ran towards the railroad yard, after their encounter with Gloria Calvary
At some point they looked back and saw Truly and Baker near the front entrance of the TSBD.
They continued on and when they got to railroad tracks next to the TSBD annex, they saw policemen searching cars, so they decided to re-enter the building, through a small door at the west side of the building

Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.
Mr. BALL - At the west end?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room.
Mr. BALL - When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?
Mr. SHELLEY - I saw Eddie Piper.
Mr. BALL - What was he doing?
Mr. SHELLEY - He was coming back from where he was watching the motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room.
Mr. BALL - Of the first floor of the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Lovelady basically tells the same story and confirms that he and Shelley entered the building through a little door at west side of the building

Mr. BALL - After you ran to the railroad tracks you came back and went in the back door of the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Did you go in through the docks, the wide open door or did you go in the ordinary Small door?
Mr. LOVELADY - You know where we park our trucks--that door; we have a little door.
Mr. BALL - That is where you went in, that little door?
Mr. LOVELADY - That's right.
Mr. BALL - That would be the north end of the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - That would be the west end, wouldn't it?

Now this is where it gets interesting, because Eddie Piper told the WC that he was watching the parade on the 1st floor at the second window from the front entrance of the TSBD.
Shortly after hearing the shots he went to the back of the building, where they make coffee and saw Truly (who he called Boss-man) and a policeman.

If you look at the diagram of the 1st floor it's completely possible that the following events were happening at roughly the same time;

After the shots, Piper moves from the Elm Street window to the coffee place.
In order to get there he has to pass by the small door where Shelley and Lovelady said they entered the 1st floor
There is a clear line of sight between the stairs in the back of the 1st floor, passed the coffee place, to see the door where Shelley and Lovelady entered
With all this going on, Shelley sees Piper and Piper sees Truly and Baker running towards the elevators.
In the meantime Adams and Styles arrive on the 1st floor where Adams sees Shelley and Lovelady as they are entering the first floor.

Obviously, the time estimates provided by all individuals involved are all over the place, but as far as the sequence of events goes it is IMO perfectly plausible that all witnesses are in fact telling the truth.

In this scenario, Adams and Styles arrive at the 1st floor just when Shelley and Lovelady enter through the small side door. They see Piper and focus on him, while Piper sees Truly and Baker and focuses on them.
As a result nobody sees Adams and Styles who leave the building through the loading dock just seconds before Truly and Baker get to the elevators.

[Dan O'meara]

Out of all the information, evidence and arguments I've put forward, the only thing you can come up with is that you find it impossible to understand how Shelley and Lovelady make their way past Baker in the lobby??

Perhaps they never did. I was reading Shelley's testimony and this stood out;

According to Shelley, he and Lovelady ran towards the railroad yard, after their encounter with Gloria Calvary
At some point they looked back and saw Truly and Baker near the front entrance of the TSBD.
They continued on and when they got to railroad tracks next to the TSBD annex, they saw policemen searching cars, so they decided to re-enter the building, through a small door at the west side of the building

Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.
Mr. BALL - At the west end?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room.
Mr. BALL - When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?
Mr. SHELLEY - I saw Eddie Piper.
Mr. BALL - What was he doing?
Mr. SHELLEY - He was coming back from where he was watching the motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room.
Mr. BALL - Of the first floor of the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Lovelady basically tells the same story and confirms that he and Shelley entered the building through a little door at west side of the building

Mr. BALL - After you ran to the railroad tracks you came back and went in the back door of the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Did you go in through the docks, the wide open door or did you go in the ordinary Small door?
Mr. LOVELADY - You know where we park our trucks--that door; we have a little door.
Mr. BALL - That is where you went in, that little door?
Mr. LOVELADY - That's right.
Mr. BALL - That would be the north end of the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - That would be the west end, wouldn't it?

Now this is where it gets interesting, because Eddie Piper told the WC that he was watching the parade on the 1st floor at the second window from the front entrance of the TSBD.
Shortly after hearing the shots he went to the back of the building, where they make coffee and saw Truly (who he called Boss-man) and a policeman.

If you look at the diagram of the 1st floor it's completely possible that the following events were happening at roughly the same time;

After the shots, Piper moves from the Elm Street window to the coffee place.
In order to get there he has to pass by the small door where Shelley and Lovelady said they entered the 1st floor
There is a clear line of sight between the stairs in the back of the 1st floor, passed the coffee place, to see the door where Shelley and Lovelady entered
With all this going on, Shelley sees Piper and Piper sees Truly and Baker running towards the elevators.
In the meantime Adams and Styles arrive on the 1st floor where Adams sees Shelley and Lovelady as they are entering the first floor.

Obviously, the time estimates provided by all individuals involved are all over the place, but as far as the sequence of events goes it is IMO perfectly plausible that all witnesses are in fact telling the truth.

In this scenario, Adams and Styles arrive at the 1st floor just when Shelley and Lovelady enter through the small side door. They see Piper and focus on him, while Piper sees Truly and Baker and focuses on them.
As a result nobody sees Adams and Styles who leave the building through the loading dock just seconds before Truly and Baker get to the elevators.

I thought something sort of similar to this until I listened to the "Lost Interview" which is the topic of this thread.
I realised that Vicki was corroborating her WC testimony - that she raced down the stairs within seconds of the last shot, was on the first floor 30 - 60 seconds after the assassination and that she saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor when she got there.
As I understand it, in the scenario you are outlining, at least a few minutes would have passed before Adams encounters Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor.
In order for Adams and Styles to make it out of the back door before Truly and Baker arrive they would have to hit the first floor within 40 -50 seconds after the assassination.
There is no other way for the Stroud document to work - in order for Adams and Styles to go down the stairs before Truly and Baker come up the stairs, and for neither pair to see the other, Adams and Styles have to leave almost immediately and run all the way (something Adams constantly asserts).
In Reply#362 I demonstrate that it was perfectly feasible for Adams to be on the first floor 35 - 40 seconds after the last shot. Truly and Baker arrive on the scene seconds later, where Baker reports seeing two white men hanging around in that area. These two men must be Shelley and Lovelady, confirmed by Adams, who witnesses them there at that time (who else could the two white men be?).

That Shelley and Lovelady lie about there movements after the assassination can hardly be denied. The case for this is overwhelming. The clincher is the "3 minute" lie both men tell in their WC testimony.
This is from Reply#401

"On the 20th March 1964, Baker and Truly took part in time trials which established how quickly both men took to get up to the second floor lunchroom after the assassination. The first time was around 90 seconds, the second time 75 seconds.
Five days later both men testify before the WC and talk about the time trials. So the times taken by Truly and Baker to get inside the TSBD building and up to the second floor are firmly established by this point.
On the 7th April the testimonies of Adams, Lovelady and Shelley are taken. Adams goes first, telling the Commission she raced down the stairs to the first floor and was there in 30-60 seconds and saw Lovelady and Shelley there. There is no contradiction between her testimony and the Truly/Baker time trials - the reason she didn't see them and they didn't see her is that she was already out the back door before Truly and Baker got to the elevators.
Then come the testimonies of, first Lovelady, then Shelley, during which both men tell exactly the same lie which completely contradicts the Truly/Baker time trials and the testimony of Adams.
Both men testify to the effect that Truly and Baker were still outside the TSBD building at least three minutes after the assassination. This completely contradicts the time trials. The timings for Baker and Truly entering the TSBD building have already been firmly established. Now both Lovelady and Shelley are more or less testifying that Baker and Truly were lying and that the whole time trial was a sham. And it's not just one of them telling this lie...it is both of them. It is an organised and co-ordinated Lie.
I'm not sure if the Commission was aware of the Darnell footage at the time of the testimonies of Lovelady and Shelley. Film evidence proving the lies of these men.
Unbelievably, the Commission never questions these lies. The lies are allowed to stand, unchallenged.
Even more unbelievably, when it comes to offer it's final version of events on the day of the assassination, the Commission somehow accepts the results of the time trials (contradicting the "3 minute" lie of Shelley and Lovelady), but they also use the testimony of these proven liars to undermine the testimony of Adams!!This is how they come up with their ridiculous claim that it took Adams five minutes to get down to the first floor. A 'conclusion' all Nutters happily swallow down without question."

[Dan O'meara]

Just a closer examination of the '3 Minute Lie' Shelley and Lovelady tell to the WC.
This analysis will leave very little doubt that both men lied about their movements after the assassination.
In his affidavit, taken hours after the assassination, Shelley states that after the shooting he ran across the Elm street extension to the concrete 'spur' where he runs into Gloria Calvery.
In his affidavit taken the same day, Lovelady makes no mention of leaving the steps before going back inside the building.
However, by the time of the WC hearings this story has changed. According to Shelley, after the shooting both men are at the steps when Gloria comes running up and after this both men run across to the concrete spur. While they are there they turn to see Baker and Truly at the foot of the front steps:

Mr. BALL: Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY: It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL: She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?

3 or 4 minutes after the shots Baker and Truly are still outside according to Shelley.
This is completely refuted by the Darnell footage which shows Baker running towards the front steps within a matter of seconds after the shooting.
Shelley's lie that it took Gloria 3 or 4 minutes to make it back to the steps is utterly ridiculous. In a previous post I demonstrated that Gloria was at the front steps before Baker got there.
Lovelady tells exactly the same lie in his WC testimony - that it took Gloria three minutes to run from Elm street to the front steps:

Mr. Ball: You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up?
Mr. Lovelady: Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say.

After this both men leave the steps and it is after this Lovelady turns to see Baker and Truly going into the building. Both men use the 3 minute timing of Gloria arriving at the steps to timestamp the entry of Baker and Truly into the building. If it was just one of them telling the 3 minute lie it could be written off as some kind of 'misremembrance' but the fact it's both of them reveals an organised and co-ordinated attempt to deliberately alter the timeline of events immediately after the assassination. And this is not the only time - Shelley goes on to repeat this lie to George and Patricia Nash:

"Further, Bill Shelley told us that Truly and Baker entered the building five or six minutes after the shooting."

The Darnell footage proves this is a lie. As does Vicki witnessing them on the first floor seconds after the assassination (supported by Baker's observation of two white men in the same area).
Once it is accepted as a lie, the rest of their various statements to the investigating authorities can be put in context.
The most honest statements are the first ones given. The affidavits taken hours after the assassination make no mention of going along the Elm Street, no mention of hanging around the railroad yard and no mention of re-entering the building through the west door. There is no mention of Lovelady leaving the steps and he re-enters the building "after it was over". Shelley runs out to the concrete spur, runs into Gloria, returns to the steps and re-enters the building.
The affidavits match perfectly with the analysis I did in Reply#403, capturing the moment Gloria has returned to the steps and Shelley has followed her back. According to their affidavits it is shortly after this moment that both men re-enter the TSBD.

Later that day Lovelady gives a statement to the FBI and the lying has begun. He states that both he and Shelley "started running towards the Presidential car but it sped away west on Elm Street under the triple underpass." He doesn't say they actually went anywhere or for how long, just that they "started running". He also doesn't mention the railroad yard but instead indicates the area where the limo was before it sped away.
Does he mean the railroad yard or the area on Elm Street where the limo slowed down? He clarifies this point in an FBI interview [(3-19-64]

"I recall that following the shooting, I ran toward the spot where President Kennedy's car had stopped. William Shelley and myself stayed in that area for approximately five minutes when we then re-entered the Depository building by the side door located on the west side of the building.”

So he is referring to the spot on Elm Street where the limo slowed down to a near stop and not the railroad yard! In this version of events both men stay in that area for five minutes. Add on the time it would take to get there, the time it would take to get back to the building and make their way to the spot where Adams saw them, this would have Adams on the first floor about 12:37pm, making it impossible for her to run out the back, have an interaction with a police officer, race around to the front of the building, have a conversation with Avery Davis and then hear the 12:38pm broadcast of a shooter in the building that persuades her to go back inside.
Worse than this is the FBI statement Shelley gave the day before:

"Immediately following the shooting, Billy N. Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed police officers to the railroad yards just west of the building and returned through the west side door of the building about ten minutes later."

Ten minutes later!!
That would place the meeting with Adams on the first floor around 12:41pm. The building would've been locked down before she even got outside!!
I've already been through the lies they told the WC. Lies that completely contradicted the time trials involving Baker and Truly but to which the WC turned a blind eye.
Which just leaves Lovelady's HSCA whopper - that he didn't re-enter the building for 15 to 20 minutes after the shooting.

Only the truly deluded can't recognise these men are lying about their movements after the assassination.
But why would they lie?
The only reason I can see is because they were witnessed on the first floor by Vicki Adams (and Baker) seconds after the assassination and they want to distance themselves from this fact. They are trying to cover up the fact they were near the back of the first floor of the TSBD within seconds of the assassination.
Why are they trying to cover this up?
What is the reason that anyone tries to cover anything up?
The most obvious answer is that they were up to no good and were spotted while in the process.
Maybe there's a more innocent explanation why they would lie to the FBI, the Warren Commission and the HSCA, but I can't see it.

Nutters will cry, "But what were they up to? What are you accusing them of?"
At the moment I'm accusing them of lying to the FBI, the Warren Commission and the HSCA about their movements after the assassination.
I'm accusing them of trying to cover up the fact they raced towards the back of the first floor seconds after the assassination.
Nutters may not find this interesting but I most certainly do.

[Martin Weidmann]

Just a closer examination of the '3 Minute Lie' Shelley and Lovelady tell to the WC.
This analysis will leave very little doubt that both men lied about their movements after the assassination.
In his affidavit, taken hours after the assassination, Shelley states that after the shooting he ran across the Elm street extension to the concrete 'spur' where he runs into Gloria Calvery.
In his affidavit taken the same day, Lovelady makes no mention of leaving the steps before going back inside the building.
However, by the time of the WC hearings this story has changed. According to Shelley, after the shooting both men are at the steps when Gloria comes running up and after this both men run across to the concrete spur. While they are there they turn to see Baker and Truly at the foot of the front steps:

Mr. BALL: Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY: It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL: She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?

3 or 4 minutes after the shots Baker and Truly are still outside according to Shelley.
This is completely refuted by the Darnell footage which shows Baker running towards the front steps within a matter of seconds after the shooting.
Shelley's lie that it took Gloria 3 or 4 minutes to make it back to the steps is utterly ridiculous. In a previous post I demonstrated that Gloria was at the front steps before Baker got there.
Lovelady tells exactly the same lie in his WC testimony - that it took Gloria three minutes to run from Elm street to the front steps:

Mr. Ball: You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up?
Mr. Lovelady: Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say.

After this both men leave the steps and it is after this Lovelady turns to see Baker and Truly going into the building. Both men use the 3 minute timing of Gloria arriving at the steps to timestamp the entry of Baker and Truly into the building. If it was just one of them telling the 3 minute lie it could be written off as some kind of 'misremembrance' but the fact it's both of them reveals an organised and co-ordinated attempt to deliberately alter the timeline of events immediately after the assassination. And this is not the only time - Shelley goes on to repeat this lie to George and Patricia Nash:

"Further, Bill Shelley told us that Truly and Baker entered the building five or six minutes after the shooting."

The Darnell footage proves this is a lie. As does Vicki witnessing them on the first floor seconds after the assassination (supported by Baker's observation of two white men in the same area).
Once it is accepted as a lie, the rest of their various statements to the investigating authorities can be put in context.
The most honest statements are the first ones given. The affidavits taken hours after the assassination make no mention of going along the Elm Street, no mention of hanging around the railroad yard and no mention of re-entering the building through the west door. There is no mention of Lovelady leaving the steps and he re-enters the building "after it was over". Shelley runs out to the concrete spur, runs into Gloria, returns to the steps and re-enters the building.
The affidavits match perfectly with the analysis I did in Reply#403, capturing the moment Gloria has returned to the steps and Shelley has followed her back. According to their affidavits it is shortly after this moment that both men re-enter the TSBD.

Later that day Lovelady gives a statement to the FBI and the lying has begun. He states that both he and Shelley "started running towards the Presidential car but it sped away west on Elm Street under the triple underpass." He doesn't say they actually went anywhere or for how long, just that they "started running". He also doesn't mention the railroad yard but instead indicates the area where the limo was before it sped away.
Does he mean the railroad yard or the area on Elm Street where the limo slowed down? He clarifies this point in an FBI interview [(3-19-64]

"I recall that following the shooting, I ran toward the spot where President Kennedy's car had stopped. William Shelley and myself stayed in that area for approximately five minutes when we then re-entered the Depository building by the side door located on the west side of the building.”

So he is referring to the spot on Elm Street where the limo slowed down to a near stop and not the railroad yard! In this version of events both men stay in that area for five minutes. Add on the time it would take to get there, the time it would take to get back to the building and make their way to the spot where Adams saw them, this would have Adams on the first floor about 12:37pm, making it impossible for her to run out the back, have an interaction with a police officer, race around to the front of the building, have a conversation with Avery Davis and then hear the 12:38pm broadcast of a shooter in the building that persuades her to go back inside.
Worse than this is the FBI statement Shelley gave the day before:

"Immediately following the shooting, Billy N. Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed police officers to the railroad yards just west of the building and returned through the west side door of the building about ten minutes later."

Ten minutes later!!
That would place the meeting with Adams on the first floor around 12:41pm. The building would've been locked down before she even got outside!!
I've already been through the lies they told the WC. Lies that completely contradicted the time trials involving Baker and Truly but to which the WC turned a blind eye.
Which just leaves Lovelady's HSCA whopper - that he didn't re-enter the building for 15 to 20 minutes after the shooting.

Only the truly deluded can't recognise these men are lying about their movements after the assassination.
But why would they lie?
The only reason I can see is because they were witnessed on the first floor by Vicki Adams (and Baker) seconds after the assassination and they want to distance themselves from this fact. They are trying to cover up the fact they were near the back of the first floor of the TSBD within seconds of the assassination.
Why are they trying to cover this up?
What is the reason that anyone tries to cover anything up?
The most obvious answer is that they were up to no good and were spotted while in the process.
Maybe there's a more innocent explanation why they would lie to the FBI, the Warren Commission and the HSCA, but I can't see it.

Nutters will cry, "But what were they up to? What are you accusing them of?"
At the moment I'm accusing them of lying to the FBI, the Warren Commission and the HSCA about their movements after the assassination.
I'm accusing them of trying to cover up the fact they raced towards the back of the first floor seconds after the assassination.
Nutters may not find this interesting but I most certainly do.

You've made a persuasive case to justify the conclusion that Shelley and Lovelady's time estimates can not be trusted or relied upon.

As for the sequence of events, I still don't understand how Shelley and Lovelady could have arrived at the stairs before Truly and Baker. In the 1978 made for TV movie "Ruby and Oswald" there is a clip showing actors playing Truly and Baker running from the front entrance counter to the elevators and they needed no more that 20 seconds to get to the stairs. So, if Shelley and Lovelady were still on the front steps when Truly and Baker went inside the building, how could it be that Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady but not Truly and Baker?

On the other hand, Shelley and Lovelady would have been able to enter the first floor at the side door within seconds after Baker and Truly entered the building. If that's what happened, it explains how Shelley could have seen Eddie Piper, who placed himself right in their line of sight in his testimony. Adams also had a clear line of sight to where Shelley and Lovelady said they entered. I still believe that she could have seen the men just a split second before leaving the building, just before Truly and Baker got there.

The reason why I think Shelley and Lovelady are being truthful about where the re-entered the building is a video clip that Gerda Dunckel made some years ago, which shows Shelley and Lovelady walking in front of the TSBD towards the parking lot.
I had hoped to find it in the photo galary but it isn't there and I haven't found it elsewhere either. There is however another clip (# 10 in Gerda's collection) which (I believe, but do not know for sure) shows Shelley talking to a police officer in the parking lot. If it is Shelley, I also can't tell when the footage was shot. I would love to find the other video though. Perhaps another member has it and can post it.

[Dan O'meara]

You've made a persuasive case to justify the conclusion that Shelley and Lovelady's time estimates can not be trusted or relied upon.

As for the sequence of events, I still don't understand how Shelley and Lovelady could have arrived at the stairs before Truly and Baker. In the 1978 made for TV movie "Ruby and Oswald" there is a clip showing actors playing Truly and Baker running from the front entrance counter to the elevators and they needed no more that 20 seconds to get to the stairs. So, if Shelley and Lovelady were still on the front steps when Truly and Baker went inside the building, how could it be that Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady but not Truly and Baker?

On the other hand, Shelley and Lovelady would have been able to enter the first floor at the side door within seconds after Baker and Truly entered the building. If that's what happened, it explains how Shelley could have seen Eddie Piper, who placed himself right in their line of sight in his testimony. Adams also had a clear line of sight to where Shelley and Lovelady said they entered. I still believe that she could have seen the men just a split second before leaving the building, just before Truly and Baker got there.

I have definitely been emphasising the veracity of what Adams testified to in her WC testimony as she reiterates the same points in the "Lost Interview". I think this is further supported by her statement to the DPD where she first mentions seeing Shelley and Lovelady.
She constantly asserts that she leaves the fourth floor within seconds of the last shot. She states it was immediately after the last shot and that she had made the decision to go and investigate before the limo had even reached the underpass.
Seconds later Dillard takes a pic which includes the fourth floor window Adams was watching events out of. She and Styles are nowhere to be seen. This is to be expected if she has already decided to get downstairs.
I have demonstrated that Adams could've been on the first floor 35 -40 seconds after the last shot and before Truly and Baker make it to the area near the elevator The Stroud document confirms that this was indeed the case.
Adams sees Shelley and Lovelady as she runs from the first floor stairs to the back door. She is certain and precise about their position:

Mr. Belin: When you got to the bottom of the first floor, did you see anyone there as you entered the first floor from the stairway?
Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin: Who did you see?
Miss ADAMS. Mr. Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady.
Mr. Belin: Where did you see them on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS. Well, this is the stairs, and this is the Houston Street dock that I went out. They were approximately in this position here, so I don't know how you would describe that.
Mr. BELIN. You are looking now at a first floor plan or diagram of the Texas School Book Depository, and you have pointed to a position where you encountered Bill Lovelady and Mr. Bill Shelley?
Miss ADAMS. That's correct.
Mr. Belin: It would be slightly east of the front of the east elevator, and probably as far south as the length of the elevator, is that correct?
Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir.

Slightly east of the east elevator and as far south as the length of the elevator.
In the diagram below the circle marks this approximate area and the line shows Adams' approximate route.



Adams can be sure of this position because she has an interaction with them:

Mr. BELIN: Now what did you do after you encountered Mr. Shelley and Mr. Lovelady?
Miss ADAMS: I said I believed the President was shot.
Mr. Belin: Do you remember what they said?
Miss ADAMS. Nothing.
Mr. Belin: Then what did you do?
Miss ADAMS: I proceeded out to the Houston Street dock.

In my opinion, it is impossible for Shelley and Lovelady to get down to the west door and into the position Adams sees them within 35 - 40 seconds.
Another problem with the west door theory is that Adams is racing towards the Houston Street loading dock door and would have her back to the west door. She would be running away from it and she would not have been able to have any kind of interaction with Shelley and Lovelady.
On top of that, the west door theory is relying on the word of Shelley and Lovelady, two liars who are specifically lying about their movements after the assassination.

So, how do Shelley and Lovelady end up near the elevators before Truly and Baker in the theory that emanates from taking Vicki at her word?
In Reply#403 I brought together as much relevant evidence as I could to recreate the seconds immediately after the assassination regarding the movements of Shelley and Lovelady. It culminated in this series of identifications:



According to the theory I'm developing here, the above pic shows Baker almost at the bottom of the steps, near where Shelley is standing. Lovelady is a few steps up listening to Gloria. But note Truly, he is the furthest away from the front door and is looking the wrong way.
As the seconds roll on from this point, Baker makes his way up the steps (probably the west side as he is remembered by Pauline Saunders who is stood on the west side). Baker enters the lobby and wants to find out about getting up through the building. As Baker is moving up the steps into the lobby, Shelley and Lovelady make their way up the steps, pass Baker in the lobby and move into the first floor working area. They are followed up the steps by Truly who enters the lobby and goes straight to Baker. He and Baker have some kind of interaction before they head off for the elevators.
Shelley and Lovelady are just a few seconds ahead of them, they arrive at the position shown on the map above where they are seen by Adams. Adams exits through the back door and Baker and Truly arrive where Baker notices two white men just stood around the area near the elevators.
Baker makes this point in his WC testimony - as he enters the building he is aware of other people entering with him.

Mr. Belin: What did you see and what did you do as you ran into the building?
Mr. Baker: As I entered this building, there was, it seems to me like there was outside doors and then there is a little lobby.
Mr. Belin: All right.
Mr. Baker: And then there are some inner doors and another door you have to go through, a swinging door type.
As I entered this lobby there were people going in as I entered. And I asked, I just spoke out and asked where the stairs or elevator was, and this man, Mr. Truly, spoke up and says, it seems to me like he says, "I am a building manager. Follow me, officer, and I will show you." So we immediately went out through the second set of doors, and we ran into the swinging door.

It is not beyond the realms of possibility that these people entering at the same time as him are Shelley and Lovelady who are closer to the front door than Truly is. It should be noted that, according to Baker, Truly arrives on the scene after the people who have entered with him.

The reason why I think Shelley and Lovelady are being truthful about where the re-entered the building is a video clip that Gerda Dunckel made some years ago, which shows Shelley and Lovelady walking in front of the TSBD towards the parking lot.
I had hoped to find it in the photo galary but it isn't there and I haven't found it elsewhere either. There is however another clip (# 10 in Gerda's collection) which (I believe, but do not know for sure) shows Shelley talking to a police officer in the parking lot. If it is Shelley, I also can't tell when the footage was shot. I would love to find the other video though. Perhaps another member has it and can post it.

I know the Dunkel clip you're talking about but the truth is that a close analysis of this clip shows that these men are not walking together. At the beginning of the clip one man is behind the other and as it rolls the man at the back moves quickly past the other and keeps going. Neither man looks back towards the steps where they are supposed to see Baker at the bottom of the steps. Neither man has run to the concrete spur, as both men lied, I mean, testified to. I think it was Alan Ford who had the rare insight that Danny Arce was a good candidate for the slower of the two.
I certainly don't buy it's them and have put a case forward for Shelley and Lovelady still being at the steps when Baker arrives, a position they can realistically make it to the back of the first floor while Truly talks with Baker.

Final note - there is definitely something going on with the west door. They are mentioning it for a specific reason. It is doubtless something to do with whatever it is they are trying to cover up.

[Dan O'meara]