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Author Topic: The Shifting Single-Bullet Theory--It Always "Works" No Matter What  (Read 30764 times)

Offline Jim Hawthorn

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Re: The Shifting Single-Bullet Theory--It Always "Works" No Matter What
« Reply #176 on: March 04, 2024, 07:49:07 AM »
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Mrs. KENNEDY. Well, there must have been two because the one that made me turn around was Governor Connally yelling. And it used to confuse me because first I remembered there were three and I used to think my husband didn’t make any sound when he was shot. And Governor Connally screamed. And then I read the other day that it was the same shot that hit them both. But I used to think if I only had been looking to the right I would have seen the flrst shot hit him, then I could have pulled him down, and then the second shot would not have hit him.

She was wrong. In the Zapruder film, we can see that she turned her head to the right at frames 173 to 193, just before she disappeared behind the Stemmons Freeway sign.


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Re: The Shifting Single-Bullet Theory--It Always "Works" No Matter What
« Reply #176 on: March 04, 2024, 07:49:07 AM »


Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: The Shifting Single-Bullet Theory--It Always "Works" No Matter What
« Reply #177 on: March 04, 2024, 03:07:56 PM »
You have to try to fit Woodward's statement to other evidence. You are ignoring Phil Willis and other witnesses along Elm St who gave relative positions of the President at the time of the first shot.
When you are using a statement of someone for proof of its contents, if the statement is reported by a person who heard it said, it is hearsay. Now if it is reported by someone who heard someone refer to a hearsay statement, it is double hearsay. And if someone refers to that person's repetition of a double hearsay statement, it is triple hearsay. Not generally regarded as reliable evidence.

 In this case the fact you are attempting to prove is the state of Jack Bell's mind regarding his auditory perception of the events in Dealey Plaza. The alleged statement about his auditory perception was made by Jack Bell himself.  It was allegedly heard by Merriman Smith. So if Merriman Smith reported it, it would be hearsay.  But he didn't. Rather it was Bob Clark that heard Smith mention what he heard Bell say. That is double hearsay. But Clark did not write  the article. Sloyan heard Clark's statement about what Smith said Bell said and passed it along to the reader. That is triple hearsay

You were quoting Woodward and now you are not. She was specific as to when.

Bob Clark was in the car with Bell and Smith

Post the Connally’s testimony or is that the point of this evasion?

Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: The Shifting Single-Bullet Theory--It Always "Works" No Matter What
« Reply #178 on: March 04, 2024, 05:05:03 PM »
You were quoting Woodward and now you are not. She was specific as to when.
She said that as he passed by he turned forward and there was a "horrible ear-shattering noise":

"But we started clapping and cheering and both he and Mrs. Kennedy turned, and smiled and waved, directly at us, it seemed....  As it turned out, we were almost certainly the last faces he noticed in the crowd.  After acknowledging our cheers, he faced forward again and suddenly there was a horrible ear-shattering noise...."

Where do you see JFK turn forward?  Here are the frames where JFK turns from looking right to forward.  The turn occurs between z193 and 198:



Quote
Bob Clark was in the car with Bell and Smith
That may be.  But Sloyan was not quoting Clark saying Bell said it.  Sloyan was quoting Smith saying it.  But Sloyan didn’t interview Smith (who died in 1970) so he was quoting someone, possibly Clark, saying Smith said that Bell said it. So it is: Sloyan<someone (Clark)<Smith<Bell.
Here is the source quote (“Total Domination”, Patrick Sloyan, American Journalism Review, May 1998):

“ Smith recounted how Bell began pounding his head and back. Smith, doubling his body over the handset, kept the phone from Bell until the car pulled up at the hospital emergency entrance. When the sedan stopped, Smith said he flung the phone at Bell and jumped out. As Smith headed for the emergency entrance, he said he heard Bell on the radio-telephone, saying, "No one knows if there was any gunfire." In the AP Dallas bureau, staffers remember only a cryptic call – "This is Jack Bell.." – before the line went dead.”

Quote
Post the Connally’s testimony or is that the point of this evasion?
I did.  He said it was inconceivable that the shot he felt was the first shot (4 H 135-136). Again, which part of the following statement is difficult to understand?:

Mr. SPECTER. In your view, which bullet caused the injury to your chest,
Governor CONNALLY. The second one.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is your reason for that conclusion, sir?
Governor CONNALLY. Well, in my judgment, it just couldn’t conceivably have
been the first one because I heard the sound of the shot. In the first place, I
don’t know anything about the velocity of this particular bullet, but any rifle
has a velocity that exceeds the speed of sound, and when I heard the sound
of that first shot, that bullet had already reached where I was, or it had reached
that far, and after I heard that shot. I had the time to turn to my right, and
start to turn to my left before I felt anything.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2024, 08:47:25 PM by Andrew Mason »

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Re: The Shifting Single-Bullet Theory--It Always "Works" No Matter What
« Reply #178 on: March 04, 2024, 05:05:03 PM »


Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: The Shifting Single-Bullet Theory--It Always "Works" No Matter What
« Reply #179 on: March 05, 2024, 02:27:55 AM »
She said that as he passed by he turned forward and there was a "horrible ear-shattering noise":

"But we started clapping and cheering and both he and Mrs. Kennedy turned, and smiled and waved, directly at us, it seemed....  As it turned out, we were almost certainly the last faces he noticed in the crowd.  After acknowledging our cheers, he faced forward again and suddenly there was a horrible ear-shattering noise...."

Where do you see JFK turn forward?  Here are the frames where JFK turns from looking right to forward.  The turn occurs between z193 and 198:


That may be.  But Sloyan was not quoting Clark saying Bell said it.  Sloyan was quoting Smith saying it.  But Sloyan didn’t interview Smith (who died in 1970) so he was quoting someone, possibly Clark, saying Smith said that Bell said it. So it is: Sloyan<someone (Clark)<Smith<Bell.
Here is the source quote (“Total Domination”, Patrick Sloyan, American Journalism Review, May 1998):

“ Smith recounted how Bell began pounding his head and back. Smith, doubling his body over the handset, kept the phone from Bell until the car pulled up at the hospital emergency entrance. When the sedan stopped, Smith said he flung the phone at Bell and jumped out. As Smith headed for the emergency entrance, he said he heard Bell on the radio-telephone, saying, "No one knows if there was any gunfire." In the AP Dallas bureau, staffers remember only a cryptic call – "This is Jack Bell.." – before the line went dead.”
I did.  He said it was inconceivable that the shot he felt was the first shot (4 H 135-136). Again, which part of the following statement is difficult to understand?:

Mr. SPECTER. In your view, which bullet caused the injury to your chest,
Governor CONNALLY. The second one.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is your reason for that conclusion, sir?
Governor CONNALLY. Well, in my judgment, it just couldn’t conceivably have
been the first one because I heard the sound of the shot. In the first place, I
don’t know anything about the velocity of this particular bullet, but any rifle
has a velocity that exceeds the speed of sound, and when I heard the sound
of that first shot, that bullet had already reached where I was, or it had reached
that far, and after I heard that shot. I had the time to turn to my right, and
start to turn to my left before I felt anything.

Where do you see JFK turn forward? 

He turns after Z207 Which is confirmed by Jean Newman “just after her” and then “just before” the Chisms. It was not Z193, more like Z214 to Z218.

That may be.  But Sloyan was not quoting Clark saying Bell said it.   

I will try it a different way. Bob Clark was in the car also. Bell is just one more person who says he heard three shots. The point is Bell did not originally know what the sound was.

I did.  He said it was inconceivable that the shot he felt was the first shot (4 H 135-136).

No, it is what did he say not think, you know what both JBC and Nellie said because of all the times it was posted. Are you afraid of it?
Additionally, there seems to be very little time difference between the first shot and his feeling it.

Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: The Shifting Single-Bullet Theory--It Always "Works" No Matter What
« Reply #180 on: March 05, 2024, 04:09:32 AM »
Where do you see JFK turn forward? 

He turns after Z207 Which is confirmed by Jean Newman “just after her” and then “just before” the Chisms. It was not Z193, more like Z214 to Z218.
Buf he does turn forward between z193 and z198. We can see it:



Quote
I will try it a different way. Bob Clark was in the car also. Bell is just one more person who says he heard three shots. The point is Bell did not originally know what the sound was.
Only if you accept this triple hearsay as reliable evidence.  It is interesting that Clark did not say that he heard Bell say it.  Given the extreme competitiveness of Smith who would seize every opportunity to put down his competition ie. Bell, I don’t find it very reliable evidence. Clark never said he disputed the three shots.
Quote
I did.  He said it was inconceivable that the shot he felt was the first shot (4 H 135-136).

No, it is what did he say not think, you know what both JBC and Nellie said because of all the times it was posted. Are you afraid of it?
Additionally, there seems to be very little time difference between the first shot and his feeling it.
Not according to Connolly. (But why should we believe him over your superior interpretive skill?)…

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Re: The Shifting Single-Bullet Theory--It Always "Works" No Matter What
« Reply #180 on: March 05, 2024, 04:09:32 AM »


Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: The Shifting Single-Bullet Theory--It Always "Works" No Matter What
« Reply #181 on: March 05, 2024, 05:50:53 AM »
Buf he does turn forward between z193 and z198. We can see it:


Only if you accept this triple hearsay as reliable evidence.  It is interesting that Clark did not say that he heard Bell say it.  Given the extreme competitiveness of Smith who would seize every opportunity to put down his competition ie. Bell, I don’t find it very reliable evidence. Clark never said he disputed the three shots.Not according to Connolly. (But why should we believe him over your superior interpretive skill?)…

Buf he does turn forward between z193 and z198. We can see it:

No, you see him waving and looking at the last group of people on that side of the street and then after he looks forward. You think he is continuing to wave through the shock of being shot?

Only if you accept this triple hearsay as reliable evidence

What triple hearsay. They obviously weren’t sure at the time. Merriman Smith told them all. Clark refers to the confusion and then Smith reacts. They obviously were not sure.

Smith was the first to recognize the sounds".... "We heard the first shot and somebody said, 'My god, that must be a police backfire,' " Clark recalls. Then two more bangs came. It was Smith who concluded they were gunshots. "I was certain it was gunfire," Smith said that night.”

Smith concluded they were shots not Bell. 

  Not according to Connolly. (But why should we believe him over your superior interpretive skill?)

It is yes according to Connally, actually. The hospital bed interview is entirely different. Neither of the statements do not seem to have much time between sound of the first shot and him feeling it. He was also talking about an automatic gun to help explain how close they were.

Post what JBC and Nelly stated along with Jackies and then you won’t have to interpret anything.

Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: The Shifting Single-Bullet Theory--It Always "Works" No Matter What
« Reply #182 on: March 05, 2024, 07:31:13 PM »
But he does turn forward between z193 and z198. We can see it:

No, you see him waving and looking at the last group of people on that side of the street and then after he looks forward. You think he is continuing to wave through the shock of being shot?

Only if you accept this triple hearsay as reliable evidence

What triple hearsay. They obviously weren’t sure at the time. Merriman Smith told them all. Clark refers to the confusion and then Smith reacts. They obviously were not sure.
Smith was not confused. He was sure they were shots and he was sure there were three.  He was too competitive to not get the facts right.  So if he was unsure he would not have said three shots in his first dispatch:

"DALLAS NOV. 22 (UPI)  -- THREE SHOTS WERE FIRED AT PRESIDENT KENNEDY’S MOTORCADE TODAY IN DOWNTOWN DALLAS.  JT1234PCS”

Quote
Not according to Connally. (But why should we believe him over your superior interpretive skill?)

It is yes according to Connally, actually. The hospital bed interview is entirely different. Neither of the statements do not seem to have much time between sound of the first shot and him feeling it. He was also talking about an automatic gun to help explain how close they were.
Seems?  Nay it is, I know not "seems".

There was enough time, as JBC explained, to realize he had heard a rifle shot and realize that an assassination was unfolding, and to look around to try to see JFK and then decide to turn to his left. Nellie said that he also uttered "Oh, no, no" after the first shot and before the second shot.  She also said that she looked at JFK after the first shot but not after the second. She is looking back at JFK past z260.

Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: The Shifting Single-Bullet Theory--It Always "Works" No Matter What
« Reply #183 on: March 06, 2024, 03:07:54 AM »
Smith was not confused. He was sure they were shots and he was sure there were three.  He was too competitive to not get the facts right.  So if he was unsure he would not have said three shots in his first dispatch:

"DALLAS NOV. 22 (UPI)  -- THREE SHOTS WERE FIRED AT PRESIDENT KENNEDY’S MOTORCADE TODAY IN DOWNTOWN DALLAS.  JT1234PCS”
Seems?  Nay it is, I know not "seems".

There was enough time, as JBC explained, to realize he had heard a rifle shot and realize that an assassination was unfolding, and to look around to try to see JFK and then decide to turn to his left. Nellie said that he also uttered "Oh, no, no" after the first shot and before the second shot.  She also said that she looked at JFK after the first shot but not after the second. She is looking back at JFK past z260.

Nellie said that he also uttered "Oh, no, no" after the first shot and before the second shot.  She also said that she looked at JFK after the first shot but not after the second. She is looking back at JFK past z260

You know what Jackie stated now what did JBC state?

Smith was not confused. He was sure they were shots and he was sure there were three.  He was too competitive to not get the facts right.  So if he was unsure he would not have said three shots in his first dispatch:

He was not confused as much as he did not know for sure if all three were shots. Smith is what the WC and the HSCA committees were referring to when they mentioned the media influenced the witnesses into inflating the number of shots.

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Re: The Shifting Single-Bullet Theory--It Always "Works" No Matter What
« Reply #183 on: March 06, 2024, 03:07:54 AM »