That Is Not Officer Haygood = Conspiracy! Prove Me Wrong Challenge

[Dan O'meara]

Your posted Murray Photo was taken well after Haygood had already returned to his motorcycle at the Elm Curb.

According to Richard Trask in his book “Pictures of the Pain”, page 494, the next photo that Murray took is the one that includes Amos Euins and also Hugh Betzner wandering around in the parking lot area. Going by memory, I believe that Harkness radioed about having Amos Euins as a witness and taking him to the car in the front of the TSBD building around 12:36. Therefore it appears that the Murray photo that Dan posted was taken well before 12:06. Trask backs up his information with a lot of references including interviews and correspondence with Murray.

Ouch!
I think that pretty much wraps things up here.

[James Hackerott]

After leaving the RR yard Murray stood on the grassy knoll and photographed the crowd gathered on N Elm, including the area near the parked motorcycle of Clyde Haygood. His helmet is visible in the photo near his bike. Murray also caught the north peristyle wall with an advancing shadow moving southward about 3-4” per minute. Modeling this wall shadow allows an estimation of the time as 12:36.


My original posting on this technique can be found in this forum here.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2013.msg54679.html#google_vignette

[Charles Collins]

After leaving the RR yard Murray stood on the grassy knoll and photographed the crowd gathered on N Elm, including the area near the parked motorcycle of Clyde Haygood. His helmet is visible in the photo near his bike. Murray also caught the north peristyle wall with an advancing shadow moving southward about 3-4” per minute. Modeling this wall shadow allows an estimation of the time as 12:36.


My original posting on this technique can be found in this forum here.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2013.msg54679.html#google_vignette

Thanks James, excellent work as usual! A few photos later in Murray’s sequence we can see a time displayed on the clock on top of the TSBD as 12:39. Which further supports the accuracy of your shadow technique.

[Mitch Todd]

   So once again you have Failed to provide EXACTLY WHERE Haygood ran into a "presumed" railroad detective, and then went straight back to his motorcycle? This is Not surprising as the "No Glove Cop" is Not Officer Haygood. And you need to consider that 5 Minute window he has. Like everyone else, you consistently FAIL to consider the Haygood tick/tock consumed while he questioned 2 eyewitnesses BEFORE making that 12:35 radio transmission from his motorcycle. And then we also have the "No Glove Cop" not wearing a glove on his (R) Hand vs Officer Haygood clearly Wearing BOTH GLOVES in the Cancellare photo. Photo Evidence + Film Evidence + Haygood's WC Testimony +5 Minute Window + DPD Uniform Disparity PROVE this "No Glove Cop" is Not Haygood.

So once again you have Failed to provide EXACTLY WHERE Haygood ran into a "presumed" railroad detective, and then went straight back to his motorcycle?

It was never my responsibility to determine where Haygood ran into his presumed railroad detective. The photographic evidence is sparse enough that there are plenty of opportunities for this that are not on film. It is up to you to show that he had to have run into the detective while on the ballustrade. All you are doing is trying to shift the burden of proof.


And you need to consider that 5 Minute window he has.

You have also singularly failed to show that he could not have been able to make it to the west spur and back to his motorcycle in 5 minutes. The window is also 4-6 minutes long, since we cant be certain of when in 12:30 the shots were fired and where in 12:35 Haygood hit the mic button on his radio.

Having failed all of that, all you can do is capitalize the word "PROVE" like it makes a difference.

[Royell Storing]

So once again you have Failed to provide EXACTLY WHERE Haygood ran into a "presumed" railroad detective, and then went straight back to his motorcycle?

It was never my responsibility to determine where Haygood ran into his presumed railroad detective. The photographic evidence is sparse enough that there are plenty of opportunities for this that are not on film. It is up to you to show that he had to have run into the detective while on the ballustrade. All you are doing is trying to shift the burden of proof.


And you need to consider that 5 Minute window he has.

You have also singularly failed to show that he could not have been able to make it to the west spur and back to his motorcycle in 5 minutes. The window is also 4-6 minutes long, since we cant be certain of when in 12:30 the shots were fired and where in 12:35 Haygood hit the mic button on his radio.

Having failed all of that, all you can do is capitalize the word "PROVE" like it makes a difference.

            I appreciate your attempting to meet my challenge. As I told you, I have a mountain of evidence.

                                       -  WC TESTIMONY OF JAMES TAGUE -

              Mr TAGUE - "..........After the third shot, I ducked behind the bridge abutment and was there for a second, and as I glanced out, and just as I looked out, the car following the President's car, the one with the Secret Service men was just flying past at that time.

              LIEBLER -   "Going on Elm St under the Triple Underpass?"

               TAGUE -     " Right, going on Elm. So I stood there looking around. I looked up--there was a motorcycle policeman, and he had stopped and drawn his weapon and was running up the embankment toward the railroad tracks. A crowd of people, several people were starting to come down into that area  where he was running, and the people pointing and excitement up there and so on, and about that time a patrolman who evidently had been stationed under the triple underpass walked up and said "what happened?", and I said "I don't know, something". And we walked up to - by this time the Motorcycle Policeman RETURNED BACK CLOSE to where his motorcycle was, and we walked up there, and there was a man standing there. Seeing that he was very excited, I don't remember his name at this time, I had it on the tip of my tongue very excited saying he was watching the President and it seemed like his head just exploded. This was a COUPLE OR 3 MINUTES AFTER THIS HAPPENED". ...................

           Obviously DPD Motorcycle Officer Haygood was BACK at his motorcycle well before making that 12:35 radio transmission from his motorcycle. He had to be in order to listen to the eyewitness stories that mandated his making his Documented 12:35 radio transmission from his motorcycle. Officer Haygood was able to be BACK at his motorcycle this quickly due to his retracing his steps and going BACK over the Triple Underpass, jumping BACK onto the Grassy Knoll, and then going BACK Down the grassy knoll to his motorcycle. That is Not Officer Haygood on the Darnell/Martin films walking in front of the caboose, train cars and then Toward/Down the Elm St Ext. During his WC Testimony, Haygood NEVER mentions doing any of this. Per the WC Testimony of James Tague, Officer Haygood was back at his motorcycle within roughly 3 minutes following the Kill Shot.

              This is a Major Discovery! My challenge stands due to being supported by a mountain of Evidence.     

[Royell Storing]

Your posted Murray Photo was taken well after Haygood had already returned to his motorcycle at the Elm Curb.

What evidence do you have for this claim?

    "Pictures Of The Pain" went into Detail regarding the Murray itinerary on 11/22/63. As with many of the witnesses chronicled in this book, their story jumps around/across many and sometimes hundreds of scattered pages. A dedicated "researcher" needs to follow this disjointed story telling to its' complete conclusion. To set the record straight, Murray was initially inside when the Kill Shot was fired. (5 minute Haygood clock begins running). Murray exited the building and then went to his car and retrieved his camera from the trunk. He then changed the film inside that same camera. After this, he then went Directly to Elm St and took photos. Any of the Murray photos posted on this thread would have been snapped after Officer Haygood's 5 minute window had Expired.

[Charles Collins]

    "Pictures Of The Pain" went into Detail regarding the Murray itinerary on 11/22/63. As with many of the witnesses chronicled in this book, their story jumps around/across many and sometimes hundreds of scattered pages. A dedicated "researcher" needs to follow this disjointed story telling to its' complete conclusion. To set the record straight, Murray was initially inside when the Kill Shot was fired. (5 minute Haygood clock begins running). Murray exited the building and then went to his car and retrieved his camera from the trunk. He then changed the film inside that same camera. After this, he then went Directly to Elm St and took photos. Any of the Murray photos posted on this thread would have been snapped after Officer Haygood's 5 minute window had Expired.

Any of the Murray photos posted on this thread would have been snapped after Officer Haygood's 5 minute window had Expired.

This is apparently your opinion. Trask’s information based on documentation in “Pictures of the Pain” indicate that your opinion is clearly wrong. Here are Trask’s chapter notes (references) at the end of his chapter on Murray and his photos.



I don’t know about anyone else, but I prefer to believe Trask has it right. James Hackerott’s work with the shadow-clock also supports Trask’s information.

[Royell Storing]

Any of the Murray photos posted on this thread would have been snapped after Officer Haygood's 5 minute window had Expired.

This is apparently your opinion. Trask’s information based on documentation in “Pictures of the Pain” indicate that your opinion is clearly wrong. Here are Trask’s chapter notes (references) at the end of his chapter on Murray and his photos.



I don’t know about anyone else, but I prefer to believe Trask has it right. James Hackerott’s work with the shadow-clock also supports Trask’s information.

   The above "Chapter Notes" says Nothing about Murray taking photos back inside the train yard within 5 Minutes following the Kill Shot. (Officer Haygood's 5 minute window). I guess you do Not have ready access to Trask's "Pictures Of The Pain" and the relevant portions that pertain to Murray. I do have the book and it does contribute to my confidence regarding my groundbreaking discovery that the "No Glove Cop" as filmed by Darnell/Martin is Not Officer Haygood.
   I can/will help you. "Pictures Of The Pain" page 491- "Murray noted that the parking spaces on the main streets were off-limits due to the motorcade route. He found a space by the rear loading dock of the TSBD, parking probably illegally......."  Page 493 - "Murray estimates that it took him about 3 MINUTES after hearing the 3 reports to get to his car and and prepare his cameras". Page 493- "With the 2 cameras around his neck, he quickly moved to the Elm and Houston street corner near the Book Depository front entrance.  "In 3 of Murray's first 4 pictures, his camera jammed...."  "The frames were completely over-exposed". " Murray's next frame shows another blank, and it was at this point that he switched lenses to a 35mm wide angle lens".... "I sort of worked my way off that corner, down toward the site of the grassy knoll..........." Page 494 - "Moving westerly along the DIRT Elm Street Extension road into the railroad parking area, Murray squeezed off 2 pictures..............".      To recap, Murray consumed 3 minutes just getting to his car and retrieving his cameras from the trunk. From his car parked behind the loading dock, he then went to Elm St and consumed time taking 4 photos.  After doing all of this, he then traveled down the DIRT section of the Elm St Ext and took pics in the train yard. Murray took 3 minutes alone to just get to his car and get his cameras out of the trunk. At this point, he only has 2 minutes remaining on Officer Haygood's 5 Minute Window. The Murray Tick/Tock detailed inside "Pictures Of The Pain" reveals his train yard photos to have been snapped More than 5 minutes following the Kill Shot. My discovery that the "No Glove Cop" as filmed by Darnell/Martin is Not Officer Haygood stands!