Users Currently Browsing This Topic:
0 Members

Author Topic: The 3 Minute Lie  (Read 10601 times)

Online Richard Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5290
Re: The 3 Minute Lie
« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2024, 03:12:07 PM »
Advertisement


You have taken a photo, created a story around it that only you think is accurate and stating all these people are lying. A photo only you can make out the participants. The interesting part is still how Lovelady and Shelley get in front of Truly and Baker in order to complete this fanciful tale. This whole story depends on Shelley and Lovelady telling the truth about talking to Calvery but also lying about everything else. Can you explain the reason for this odd logic? Maybe start with why are all the people who are lying are in a dead sprint to be where you want them to be.

Guessing and conjecture is all this whole post is about. Not a true fact anywhere. Until I read to you Shelley’s statement about Calvery you did not have an interest in her. Now you believe that part of his statement is undeniable, but the time is a lie. There is a point in time where constant accusations are just part of the endless tripe.

You have not proven anything.



This is some harsh truth.  Well said.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The 3 Minute Lie
« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2024, 03:12:07 PM »


Offline Andrew Mason

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1412
    • SPMLaw
Re: The 3 Minute Lie
« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2024, 07:25:56 PM »

The following are excerpts from the WC testimonies of both men demonstrating, beyond any doubt, that they testify to the sequence of events I have laid out.

LOVELADY

Mr. Lovelady: ...I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there.
Mr. Ball: You ate your lunch on the steps?
Mr. Lovelady: Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball: Did you stay on the steps
Mr. Lovelady: Yes.
Mr. Ball: Were you there when the President's motorcade went by
Mr. Lovelady: Right.
Mr. Ball: Did you hear anything?
Mr. Lovelady: Yes, sir; sure did.
Mr. Ball: What did you hear?
Mr. Lovelady: I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival of the President. It didn't occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot.

Mr. Ball: The top step you were standing there?
Mr. Lovelady: Right.
Mr. Ball: Now, when Gloria came up you were standing near Mr. Shelley?
Mr. Lovelady: Yeah.
Mr. Ball: When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?
Mr. Lovelady: Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street...

Mr. Ball: By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. Lovelady: As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.


SHELLEY

Mr. Ball: You were standing where?
Mr. Shelley: Just outside the glass doors there.
Mr. Ball: That would be on the top landing of the entrance?
Mr. Shelley: yes.
Mr. Ball: Did you see the motorcade pass?
Mr. Shelley: Yes.
Mr. Ball: What did you hear?
Mr. Shelley: Well, I heard something sounded like it was a firecracker and a slight pause and then two more a little bit closer together.

Mr. Ball: Then what happened?
Mr. Shelley: Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.

Mr. Ball: Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?
Mr. Shelley: Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.


Do you agree with the fact that both men testify to the following sequence of events in their WC testimonies:
1] They were stood on the steps when the shooting happened.
2] They had not moved from the steps by the time Gloria came running up to them.
3] They left the steps heading across the Elm Street extension.
4] They turn and see Truly and Baker still stood outside the building.

It is not clear from the excerpts you have provided that they are saying that Gloria Calvery came up to them when they were on the steps.  That might be an inference one could draw, were it not for their earlier statements where they made it clear that they crossed Elm immediately after the shots and met Calvery.

Quote
You were also asked to what extent you relied on the testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady when determining how long it took Adams to make it down to the first floor. You implied that you were using evidence other than the testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady to make your determination.
What other evidence were you using?
Their earlier statements.  They described going across Elm trying to see the President's car but it sped away under the triple underpass.  They described then going to the rail yards and then going back along the west side of the building and entering the back door by the rear loading dock.

Offline Jack Nessan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 993
Re: The 3 Minute Lie
« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2024, 12:58:51 AM »
Yet another in a long list of senior moments.
You've got the threads mixed up Jack.
I think it's time for your nap.  ::)

But here's a chance for you to avoid yet another simple question over and over again.
You posted that this

Sgt Harkness, Det. Sawyer and Officer Barnett testified to what took place around the building and it completely contradicts what you have been posting

Here's the question:

How does what Harkness, Sawyer and Barnett testified contradict what I've been posting?

Here's your big chance to show what an excellent "researcher" you are.
Are you going to answer this question or run away like you've done time after time?
What's it going to be Jack?

How does what Harkness, Sawyer and Barnett testified contradict what I've been posting?
 
This is a relief. I thought you had been stupidly posting that Shelley and Lovelady had actually sprinted to the elevator area immediately after the shots were fired. That in some bizarre fashion that Calvery had sprinted to the steps and told them JFK had been shot and this information was now the key to understanding this sudden revelation. That Shelley and Lovelady had been seen standing near the elevator by Adams and Styles before Truly and Baker ran up the stairs to the second-floor encounter with Oswald. 

Obviously, you are now indicating you have not been stating that at all. Instead because of the testimonies of Harkness, Swayer, and Barnett you now believe Adams and Styles had left the fourth floor later than they thought. Welcome back to reality Dan. We have missed you.

Originally, I thought you posted this as an obvious meaningless dodge to not address the obvious problems with this whole ridiculous storyline, but now I can see, like a cry for help, you are sincerely wanting to better your understanding of the assassination. Congratulations, glad I could help you.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The 3 Minute Lie
« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2024, 12:58:51 AM »


Offline Dan O'meara

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3163
Re: The 3 Minute Lie
« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2024, 01:25:23 AM »
How does what Harkness, Sawyer and Barnett testified contradict what I've been posting?
 
This is a relief. I thought you had been stupidly posting that Shelley and Lovelady had actually sprinted to the elevator area immediately after the shots were fired. That in some bizarre fashion that Calvery had sprinted to the steps and told them JFK had been shot and this information was now the key to understanding this sudden revelation. That Shelley and Lovelady had been seen standing near the elevator by Adams and Styles before Truly and Baker ran up the stairs to the second-floor encounter with Oswald. 

Obviously, you are now indicating you have not been stating that at all. Instead because of the testimonies of Harkness, Swayer, and Barnett you now believe Adams and Styles had left the fourth floor later than they thought. Welcome back to reality Dan. We have missed you.

Originally, I thought you posted this as an obvious meaningless dodge to not address the obvious problems with this whole ridiculous storyline, but now I can see, like a cry for help, you are sincerely wanting to better your understanding of the assassination. Congratulations, glad I could help you.

You're clearly having the meltdown I was worried about.
I'll try the question again:

How does what Harkness, Sawyer and Barnett testified contradict what I've been posting?

Please take your meds and have a nap before trying to answer the question old-timer.


Offline Dan O'meara

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3163
Re: The 3 Minute Lie
« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2024, 01:50:35 AM »
It is not clear from the excerpts you have provided that they are saying that Gloria Calvery came up to them when they were on the steps.

This is simply not true.
The WC testimonies of both men are unequivocal - they were on the steps at the time of the shooting and didn't leave the steps until after the encounter with Gloria. It is only once they leave the steps that they see Truly and Baker still outside the TSBD building. There is no other way to interpret their testimonies.
It is utterly dishonest of you to insinuate otherwise.
Quote
That might be an inference one could draw, were it not for their earlier statements where they made it clear that they crossed Elm immediately after the shots and met Calvery.

Firstly, this is not the first time you have made the dishonest claim that both men made earlier statements that they crossed Elm immediately after the shots and met Gloria. Lovelady never made any such claim and it's dishonest of you to keep asserting he did.
And it is really bizarre to suggest that, because Shelley stated in his affidavit on the day of the assassination that he ran across Elm and met Gloria, when he completely changes his story in his WC testimony we are meant to ignore it because of his earlier statement!!
Shelley and Lovelady are lying about their movements after the assassination, that is what the 3 Minute Lie is part of. Shelley's change of story is yet another indication of the lies he is telling. Instead, you try to use it as a way to interpret his WC testimony in a way that suits you! Could there be a more dishonest approach to the evidence?
I don't think so.

Quote
Their earlier statements.  They described going across Elm trying to see the President's car but it sped away under the triple underpass.  They described then going to the rail yards and then going back along the west side of the building and entering the back door by the rear loading dock.

Shelley and Lovelady are lying about their movements after the assassination.
It's why their stories keep changing from statement to statement.
The 3 Minute Lie is proven to be a lie by the Darnell footage, the Truly/Baker time trials and the testimonies/statements of Baker, Truly, Adams, Styles, Garner, Molina and Pauline Sanders.
You're assertion, that Adams lied in her testimony, is based solely on the statements/testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady, two proven liars.
This is good enough for you and Nutters like you but not for anyone looking honestly at this issue.
Personally, I would be ashamed at the dishonest tactics you have to resort to, but for you it seems like it's just another day at the office.

« Last Edit: April 08, 2024, 09:34:41 AM by Dan O'meara »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The 3 Minute Lie
« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2024, 01:50:35 AM »


Offline Dan O'meara

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3163
Re: The 3 Minute Lie
« Reply #37 on: April 08, 2024, 10:01:11 AM »
While Jack takes a nap I'd like to have a closer look at this claim I made in an earlier post:

I think Gloria saw JFK's head explode and ran as fast as she could back to the TSBD building.
She had about 140 ft to cover. Let's say she was running at a modest 6mph, she could have covered that distance in 16 seconds. I think it was probably quicker than that.
I think she reached the TSBD steps before Baker got there.
She was stood at the steps, telling Lovelady and others about the shooting, when Baker arrived.
Shelley was stood at the bottom of the steps having just returned from "that little, old island" across the Elm Street extension.
This whole scenario was captured by Darnell:




The woman in white is dressed very distinctively, a white headscarf and dress. she appears to be linking arms with Gloria, who wears a black headscarf and black top. I believe this is the woman who was with Gloria as reported by Joe Molina:

Mr. Ball: Do you know a girl named Gloria Calvary?
Mr. MOLINA: Yes.
Mr. Ball: Did Gloria come up?
Ms.. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl.
Mr. Ball: What did she say?
Mr. MOLINA. She said "Oh, my God, Joe, he's been shot." They were both horrified. I said "Are you sure he was shot?" She said "Oh, Joe ,I'm sure. I saw his hair fly up and I'm sure he was shot" something to that extent.


From various testimonies it is clear Gloria saw JFK's head explode so she must have been standing close enough to the limo when the headshot occurred to see it. There are a number of films taken around the moment of the assassination so it should not be too difficult to locate these two women, proving that at the moment of the headshot they were stood somewhere on Elm Street but seconds later they were on the front steps of the TSBD building.

In March of '64 the employees of the TSBD building gave statements [CE1381's] to the FBI including their whereabouts at the time of the assassination and who they were with. Gloria states that she left her office with three work colleagues to go and watch the motorcade - Karen Westbrook, Karan Hicks and Carol Reed. In their CE1381's each woman confirms she was with the other three at the time of the assassination but there is something weird about these statements that needs to be mentioned before moving on. Three of the statements - Calvery, Westbrook and Hicks' - are identical. Only Carol Reed's statement is different.
The CE1381's state that the four women were on Elm Street, about halfway between Houston Street and the underpass, which would make sense as the head shot occurred in this general area and Gloria has to be stood close enough to see it. However, there is a discrepancy - according to one version they are stood on the south side of Elm Street but in the other they are stood on the sidewalk, which is on the north side of Elm Street.
So, which is it, north or south?

When we watch the Zapruder film we see there is no-one on the south side of Elm Street that fits the description of these four young women. As the limo moves along we see:
Two black men clapping
The Babushka lady, Charles Brehm and his son.
Jean Hill and Mary Moorman.
Two older men in dark suits - one is Altgens and I believe the other is Bothun.
A diving Malcolm Summers
A family of three - the Franzens. Stood close to them a man whose name I don't know.
And finally, an unidentified couple.
The Zapruder film proves the women are not stood on the south side of Elm, meaning they are stood on the sidewalk on the north side.

In the Bronson pic below we can see those people stood on the north side. To the very left of the picture is Bill Newman stood with his wife and kids. We know from the Bell film that there is no-one else stood on the sidewalk between Bill and the underpass (there are three men on the steps leading up to the picket fence but nobody on the sidewalk).
As we move from left to right - after the Newmans there are two women, one of which I believe is Doris Mumford. Then there is a very large gap until we come to Umbrella Man and DCM. Then two college kids. Then the Chisms and then a group of five women. A red arrow points out a woman wearing a blue headscarf:



There are no group of women who could possibly be Gloria and friends between Bill Newman and the woman in the blue headscarf.
Which brings us to the picture below.



On the right hand side of the picture we see the woman with the blue headscarf (who was picked out with the red arrow in the Bronson pic), partially obscured by the Stemmons sign. In the group to her left we are looking for the woman with a white headscarf and dress and Gloria, wearing a black headscarf and black top. They are instantly recognisable as there is only one group of women wearing headscarves:



Here we have Gloria Clavery and her three work colleagues, all wearing headscarves.
In the Zapruder film, the last time we see Gloria is z190.
Seconds later we see her and the woman in white at the front steps in the Darnell footage.



In the cropped and cleaned section of the Roberdeau map below, Calvery's position is shown. It also shows her route back to the "corner of the park" where she met Shelley , who had run across from the front steps [at point A]. According to the scale of the map, the distance from Gloria's position to point A and then across to the steps is just shy of 140 ft. At a modest run of 6mph, she could have covered this distance in 16 seconds. Personally, I think she was moving faster .


Rather than stamp their little feet, huffing and puffing, I invite the resident Nutters to counter the arguments I have made here with actual evidence and arguments of their own. Show me where you think I've gone wrong and why, rather than the usual whining "I'm right so you must be wrong" logic that pervades all their posts.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2024, 02:00:31 PM by Dan O'meara »

Offline Jack Nessan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 993
Re: The 3 Minute Lie
« Reply #38 on: April 08, 2024, 05:18:07 PM »
You're clearly having the meltdown I was worried about.
I'll try the question again:

How does what Harkness, Sawyer and Barnett testified contradict what I've been posting?

Please take your meds and have a nap before trying to answer the question old-timer.

They contradict the timing on the first floor as you well know. Seriously, so much for being a great researcher. You have not set the bar very high. This thread was resolved on page one by the statement of Shelley. Remember where I had to redirect you back thirty or forty pages to the answer on when the first shot was fired? Same thing here except it was on page one.

Offline Jack Nessan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 993
Re: The 3 Minute Lie
« Reply #39 on: April 08, 2024, 05:20:41 PM »
While Jack takes a nap I'd like to have a closer look at this claim I made in an earlier post:

I think Gloria saw JFK's head explode and ran as fast as she could back to the TSBD building.
She had about 140 ft to cover. Let's say she was running at a modest 6mph, she could have covered that distance in 16 seconds. I think it was probably quicker than that.
I think she reached the TSBD steps before Baker got there.
She was stood at the steps, telling Lovelady and others about the shooting, when Baker arrived.
Shelley was stood at the bottom of the steps having just returned from "that little, old island" across the Elm Street extension.
This whole scenario was captured by Darnell:




The woman in white is dressed very distinctively, a white headscarf and dress. she appears to be linking arms with Gloria, who wears a black headscarf and black top. I believe this is the woman who was with Gloria as reported by Joe Molina:

Mr. Ball: Do you know a girl named Gloria Calvary?
Mr. MOLINA: Yes.
Mr. Ball: Did Gloria come up?
Ms.. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl.
Mr. Ball: What did she say?
Mr. MOLINA. She said "Oh, my God, Joe, he's been shot." They were both horrified. I said "Are you sure he was shot?" She said "Oh, Joe ,I'm sure. I saw his hair fly up and I'm sure he was shot" something to that extent.


From various testimonies it is clear Gloria saw JFK's head explode so she must have been standing close enough to the limo when the headshot occurred to see it. There are a number of films taken around the moment of the assassination so it should not be too difficult to locate these two women, proving that at the moment of the headshot they were stood somewhere on Elm Street but seconds later they were on the front steps of the TSBD building.

In March of '64 the employees of the TSBD building gave statements [CE1381's] to the FBI including their whereabouts at the time of the assassination and who they were with. Gloria states that she left her office with three work colleagues to go and watch the motorcade - Karen Westbrook, Karan Hicks and Carol Reed. In their CE1381's each woman confirms she was with the other three at the time of the assassination but there is something weird about these statements that needs to be mentioned before moving on. Three of the statements - Calvery, Westbrook and Hicks' - are identical. Only Carol Reed's statement is different.
The CE1381's state that the four women were on Elm Street, about halfway between Houston Street and the underpass, which would make sense as the head shot occurred in this general area and Gloria has to be stood close enough to see it. However, there is a discrepancy - according to one version they are stood on the south side of Elm Street but in the other they are stood on the sidewalk, which is on the north side of Elm Street.
So, which is it, north or south?

When we watch the Zapruder film we see there is no-one on the south side of Elm Street that fits the description of these four young women. As the limo moves along we see:
Two black men clapping
The Babushka lady, Charles Brehm and his son.
Jean Hill and Mary Moorman.
Two older men in dark suits - one is Altgens and I believe the other is Bothun.
A diving Malcolm Summers
A family of three - the Franzens. Stood close to them a man whose name I don't know.
And finally, an unidentified couple.
The Zapruder film proves the women are not stood on the south side of Elm, meaning they are stood on the sidewalk on the north side.

In the Bronson pic below we can see those people stood on the north side. To the very left of the picture is Bill Newman stood with his wife and kids. We know from the Bell film that there is no-one else stood on the sidewalk between Bill and the underpass (there are three men on the steps leading up to the picket fence but nobody on the sidewalk).
As we move from left to right - after the Newmans there are two women, one of which I believe is Doris Mumford. Then there is a very large gap until we come to Umbrella Man and DCM. Then two college kids. Then the Chisms and then a group of five women. A red arrow points out a woman wearing a blue headscarf:



There are no group of women who could possibly be Gloria and friends between Bill Newman and the woman in the blue headscarf.
Which brings us to the picture below.



On the right hand side of the picture we see the woman with the blue headscarf (who was picked out with the red arrow in the Bronson pic), partially obscured by the Stemmons sign. In the group to her left we are looking for the woman with a white headscarf and dress and Gloria, wearing a black headscarf and black top. They are instantly recognisable as there is only one group of women wearing headscarves:



Here we have Gloria Clavery and her three work colleagues, all wearing headscarves.
In the Zapruder film, the last time we see Gloria is z190.
Seconds later we see her and the woman in white at the front steps in the Darnell footage.



In the cropped and cleaned section of the Roberdeau map below, Calvery's position is shown. It also shows her route back to the "corner of the park" where she met Shelley , who had run across from the front steps [at point A]. According to the scale of the map, the distance from Gloria's position to point A and then across to the steps is just shy of 140 ft. At a modest run of 6mph, she could have covered this distance in 16 seconds. Personally, I think she was moving faster .


Rather than stamp their little feet, huffing and puffing, I invite the resident Nutters to counter the arguments I have made here with actual evidence and arguments of their own. Show me where you think I've gone wrong and why, rather than the usual whining "I'm right so you must be wrong" logic that pervades all their posts.

The 3-minute Lie.  What a joke. It makes sense you would try and turn this thread into some other topic. You are really trying to distance yourself from this obvious debacle. The WC ended this story decades ago but go ahead and keep posting your own twisted interpretations. If nothing else, it is amusing.


JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The 3 Minute Lie
« Reply #39 on: April 08, 2024, 05:20:41 PM »